# National funding of education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245 "2019-02-26T15:52:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/1 "2019-02-26T15:52:08Z")
Proposition: Public primary school (K-12) is funded by counties, and most of that by property taxes. This causes an imbalance in funding levels for poor areas vs. rich areas, which has a corresponding impact on the quality of education in those areas. If current funding were funneled to the federal level and redistributed to local governments based on either overall population or student population, then education funding would be more equitable and give people living in poverty a greater opportunity to emerge from poverty. I am not in favor of wealth distribution at the individual level, but we consider free public education to be an obligation by the government to offer to all residents, so we should be make it equitable. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/2 "2019-02-26T16:10:03Z")
I support the thinking, but there are some issues to work out. 1. Would we have to _prohibit_ localities from spending additional funds on their schools in order to maintain parity? 2. How do we address the bureaucracy required to move funds from localities to the feds and back? Are we looking at a federal Education Tax? 3. If so, are we then expecting localities to end their bonds and other revenue sources in exchange for receiving a big check from the feds? 4. No small amount of disparity lies with the relative wealth of some neighborhoods and the additional parental and community involvement that affords. Do we need to prohibit parental donations of goods and time? End “let’s build the local school a garden and then raise funds to buy every student a new tablet and a bunny?” End volunteering in the library or after-school reading programs? . ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/3 "2019-02-26T16:10:04Z")
You’re not wrong, countries with equal education funding realize greater class mobility, hence a larger pool of talent and a much more educated populous. (Ie Canada) But much like America’s issues with health care, it’s going to be near impossible to turn the train off the track now. Are rich districts with NFL quality stadiums, professional coaches and musical directors for their full marching bands with uniforms willing to give up, well, anything, just to see ‘those’ people get better schools? I highly doubt it. Good governance is about making the right choices at the right time, eyes on the future style. Undoing unwise choices is much, much harder to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/4 "2019-02-26T16:13:45Z")
1. How would this affect teachers’ salaries, which can and should be much higher on the whole…but also can and should vary to some degree by local cost of living? I’m sorry, I’m really not meaning to shit on the idea as much as it seems. I desperately want to see improved education nationally, better poverty solutions, and more educational equity. I just think we need to plan for as many consequences as possible. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/5 "2019-02-26T16:18:13Z")
The Federal government already provides money for schools with poor students through such programs as Title 1. If you include this [money](https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/90586/school_funding_brief.pdf)districts with poor students receive more money in 42 states. If you adjust for cost of living that goes up to 47 states. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/6 "2019-02-26T16:34:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > 1. How would this affect teachers’ salaries, which can and should be much higher on the whole…but also can and should vary to some degree by local cost of living? Good question. Not only teachers’ salaries, but those of other staff (e.g. custodial), and other operating expenses, might be significantly more expensive in some areas than others, so you can’t give everyone an equal experience just by budgeting equal amounts of money. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/7 "2019-02-26T17:00:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Federal government already provides money for schools with poor students through such programs as Title 1. If you include this [money](https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/90586/school_funding_brief.pdf)districts with poor students receive more money in 42 states. If you adjust for cost of living that goes up to 47 states. Did you read the study you linked? Because it also says, > [@](#): > > We find that poor students in most states attend school districts that are about as well funded as the > districts nonpoor students attend in their state. \*\*This is good news for those concerned about regressive > funding, but troubling news for those who advocate for additional funding for schools serving low-income \*\* > students. With a few notable exceptions, such as New Jersey and Ohio, districts serving poor students do > not receive significantly more resources than districts that serve nonpoor students. > Many states have adopted funding systems aimed at providing more resources to schools serving > disadvantaged students. Our analysis indicates that funding progressivity has not changed much since 1995, > **perhaps because local funding has responded in ways that tend to preserve the relative funding of more > versus less economically advantaged districts.** The ways in which state and local funding interact is an > important subject for future research. > Regardless of their overall effect on progressivity in the medium to long run, the funding reforms of the > 1990s and 2000s appear to have benefited disadvantaged students (Jackson, Johnson, and Persico 2016; > Lafortune , Rothstein, and Schazenbach 2016). But policy design clearly matters, as shown by the continued > general lack of progressivity in many states documented here and by previous research on state funding > policies (e.g., Baker and Corcoran 2012). For example, a 1994 Michigan funding reform disproportionately > benefited more advantaged students, likely because districts directed new dollars to schools serving less- > poor student populations (Hyman, forthcoming) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/8 "2019-02-26T17:01:11Z")
This opens up a whole can of worms which can be boiled down to the question, “who controls the schools?” If the federal government provides funding, does that mean the government also handles accreditation, teacher certification, curriculum, and even decides whether it’s necessary to build a new school vs. remodeling an old one? If local communities maintain control, who decides that the federal government is getting its money’s worth? What if one school district’s test scores go up while another’s goes down? Do the feds get to step in? What if the local school board decides to teach creationism and that the 1964 Civil Rights Act was an example of federal overreach? Are you okay with federal taxes funding that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/9 "2019-02-26T17:21:21Z")
I can see certain Congress Critters cutting public education funds to promote private schooling. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/10 "2019-02-26T17:24:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Did you read the study you linked? Because it also says, > > > [@](#): > > > > We find that poor students in most states attend school districts that are about as well funded as the > > districts nonpoor students attend in their state. This is good news for those concerned about regressive > > funding, but troubling news for those who advocate for additional funding for schools serving low-income > > students. With a few notable exceptions, such as New Jersey and Ohio, districts serving poor students do > > not receive significantly more resources than districts that serve nonpoor students. So equity in funding doesn’t help. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/11 "2019-02-26T17:28:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So equity in funding doesn’t help. > > Regards, > Shodan One _could_ resort to pithy one-liners. Or one could read the actual study: > [@](#): > > Regardless of their overall effect on progressivity in the medium to long run, the funding reforms of the > 1990s and 2000s appear to have benefited disadvantaged students (Jackson, Johnson, and Persico 2016; > Lafortune , Rothstein, and Schazenbach 2016). But policy design clearly matters, as shown by the continued > general lack of progressivity in many states documented here and by previous research on state funding > policies (e.g., Baker and Corcoran 2012). For example, a 1994 Michigan funding reform disproportionately > benefited more advantaged students, likely because districts directed new dollars to schools serving less- > poor student populations (Hyman, forthcoming). ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/12 "2019-02-26T17:32:39Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Proposition: Public primary school (K-12) is funded by counties, and most of that by property taxes. Where I live, public schools are not funded by counties, but through local school districts, which are separate political subdivisions. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/13 "2019-02-26T17:43:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Did you read the study you linked? Because it also says, The study says that school districts that serve the poor receive slightly more money than those that do not. If the concern is that inequality in funding hurts poor school districts then it shows that concern is ill founded. Whether the funding should actually be much higher in low income school districts is a separate concern and one that would not be addressed by the solution in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/14 "2019-02-26T17:56:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > One _could_ resort to pithy one-liners. Or one could read the actual study: I l already read that. The authors of the study found that there was rough equity in funding, or a slight advantage in spending to poor students. But they went on to complain that equitable funding wasn’t what they were after - they wanted lots more spending on poorer students. So, equity doesn’t help, just like I said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/15 "2019-02-26T17:57:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I l already read that. The authors of the study found that there was rough equity in funding, or a slight advantage in spending to poor students. But they went on to complain that equitable funding wasn’t what they were after - they wanted lots more spending on poorer students. So, equity doesn’t help, just like I said. > > Regards, > Shodan Re-read my quote and see if it agrees with what you wrote here. Hint: no, it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/16 "2019-02-26T19:55:44Z")
Thanks for the hint, but I already read it. I think both you and the authors of the study are talking about something other than rough equity in school funding. Or you could read **puddleglum** ’s post #13. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/17 "2019-02-26T20:07:45Z")
You’re right, both I and the authors of the study are not talking about rough equity in school funding. I didn’t make this particularly clear, and that’s totally my bad, but I don’t agree with the OP’s premise. To me, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend equal resources both in places where you’re doing just fine with the current resource allocation AND in places where you’re struggling. You shouldn’t just throw money at the struggling places, either – you should rethink your approach and change it up so that it DOES work. However, doing this DOES take more resources. In this case, though, I’m responding to your quote, where you said: > [@Shodan](#): > > I l already read that. The authors of the study found that there was rough equity in funding, or a slight advantage in spending to poor students. But they went on to complain that equitable funding wasn’t what they were after - they wanted lots more spending on poorer students. \*\* So, equity doesn’t help, just like I said. \*\* > > Regards, > Shodan Bolding mine. From the linked article: > [@](#): > > Regardless of their overall effect on progressivity in the medium to long run, the funding reforms of the 1990s and 2000s appear to have benefited disadvantaged students (Jackson, Johnson, and Persico 2016; Lafortune , Rothstein, and Schazenbach 2016). So – as you say, currently the disparity between schools in affluent areas and poor areas in terms of budget has shrunk (equity) – but the disparity in performance has shrunk, too, in places where these programs were actually applied. So I take issue with your statement that “equity doesn’t help” – I think it’s pretty clear that it DOES help. It doesn’t totally fix the problem, but it helps. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/18 "2019-02-26T20:11:36Z")
There is a major, MAJOR factor that’s being left out of the analysis: low-income kids often need more wraparound services, and therefore are more expensive to educate, to the same level. I’ll take, for example, two kids I’ve taught in the past. One kid had parents who were both doctors. They’d founded a nonprofit, and traveled often to other countries. Their child had spent part of her life in another country. This kid required one extra service from the school: academic enrichment, for which she went to a specialist for a total of one hour weekly, in a group of 8 other students. One kid had nine siblings and was McKenney-Vento (legally homeless); they lived in an aunt’s basement. The father was a convicted felon who couldn’t hold down a job. An older sibling was an angry teenager with addiction issues. The father was physically abusive. The child acted as a protector for her younger siblings from father, teenager, and sometimes mother. She rarely got a full night’s sleep, and nobody helped her with her homework at home, or read to her, or took her on academically enriching experiences. Before she was placed in foster care and separated from her siblings, she needed school lunch, transportation, weekly therapy, and daily pullout assistance from our exceptional children’s teacher, for a total of about two hours daily in groups of 2-3 students. If we’re going to meet the educational needs of both of these students, it’s going to cost a helluva lot more money for the second than for the first. But if you look only at dollar amounts, a school with a high percentage of kids in the second category is going to look better-off than a school with a high percentage of kids in the first category. Simple dollar-to-dollar comparisons of districts are absolutely useless. National funding of education would need to entail needs-based funding, not level-amount funding. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/19 "2019-02-26T20:30:20Z")
What LHoD said. If you have two patients, one with cancer and one with the flu, you’re not going to say, “well look, the hospital has to spend an equal amount of money on those patients – anything else wouldn’t be fair”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245/20 "2019-02-26T22:03:12Z")
Mark me down as not in favor. “If current funding were funneled to the federal level” sounds like a recipe for waste, fraud, and abuse. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-funding-of-education/830245.md?page=2)