# National Review gets out jackhammers, digs through rock bottom to find whole new low **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099 "2008-10-09T00:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/21 "2008-10-09T12:09:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Obama has firmly stated support for stem cell research ([contrast his views](http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=42) with those of John McCain). . They both support stem cell research, even embryonic stem cell research. McCain just wants more limits on it than Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/22 "2008-10-09T12:31:08Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Backatcha, **Scylla**. Here’s a cookie for rising above being wrong. Respect earned. > [@Scylla](#): > > Here’s a cookie. :runs through and nefariously snatches both cookies: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/23 "2008-10-09T13:14:36Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That is not the thesis. Sorry, but it is. Read the [discussion thread](http://www.haloscan.com/comments/raldanash/928624882255820213/?src=hsr#2564551) linked, with evident approval, from Derbyshire’s column. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/24 "2008-10-09T13:16:31Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hmm. “Cultural Marxist”. I have no clue what that’s supposed to mean, but it sure sounds cool. Yeah, I’m a Cultural Marxist, y’all. I think that means you feel that the Marx Brothers are a valuable part of our Culture. Even if it’s not, it probably should be. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/25 "2008-10-09T13:17:49Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > If you’ve got a disaster like Sarah “I’ve seen the footprints” Palin, you’ll say anything to change the subject. Well, a few liters of the Kool-Aid will generate the most amazing hallucinations, such as the following statement from Derbyshire’s column: > [@](#): > > Palin is the most libertarian candidate to run since the Reagan administration I knew libertarianism was a bit fractured, but I had no idea that it included a book-banning, earmark-grubbing faction. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/26 "2008-10-09T13:18:23Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They both support stem cell research, even embryonic stem cell research. McCain just wants more limits on it than Obama. Yes, McCain wants “clear lines to be drawn” in such research. Where are those lines going to be? His emphases sound like they’re more about “moral values and ethical principles” than on encouraging research that could lead to medical breakthroughs. And if he’s elected we’d have to hope that he’d go against [the stands of his party and his running mate](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/12/1387738.aspx): \*"…as Hotline’s Jen Skalka points out, "During a 2006 AK gubernatorial debate, Palin was asked for her view on stem (c)ell research: “‘Well, another hypothetical, because I certainly have not seen it on the docket in our university system, stem cell research. But here again, with a Pro-life position, and its interesting that so many questions revolve around this centeredness I have of respecting life and the potential of every human life, but no, stem-cell research would ultimately end in destruction of life. I couldn’t support (it).’” Skalka adds, “It’s worth noting, too, that the GOP’s 2008 platform included strong language” calling for a ban on “all embryonic stem-cell research, public or private.” \* ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/27 "2008-10-09T13:38:48Z")
Just to throw this out there, as a PhD student working towards becoming a research scientist, I have become aware of the fact that during the Bush administration, research funding has dried up phenominally. All the professors I’ve talked to agree that things are as bad now as they have ever been in living memory, if not worse. Every scientist I know is desperately hoping for Obama to win, believing that a Democratic administration will at last give science some money. So to warn that science will suffer under Obama is a wee bit hypocritical, I’d say. ETA: I’m referring to biomedical research in general here. I don’t know what the situation is in other research areas, but I’d guess it’s similar. And also, it was McCain that referred to funding research into bear DNA as an example of wasteful government spending. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/28 "2008-10-09T13:44:20Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I knew libertarianism was a bit fractured, but I had no idea that it included a book-banning, earmark-grubbing faction. :rolleyes: I checked out the rest of the post (by “gc”) that that quote came from, and that’s probably the most reasonable assertion in the whole thing: > [@](#): > > Marcus Feldman and his rapid response teams are only the beginning of this…there are a lot more mutterings going on than have been made public, and left creationists will be ascendant as never before in an Obama administration. > [@](#): > > It’s already well nigh impossible to study genetics, IQ, and race directly given IRB issues > [@](#): > > Does everyone forget that Obama is an agitator for the underclass, a longtime drug user born to an airheaded teenage mother, the son of an African polygamist and a member of a barbaric church? Obama is beloved by both Yale _and_ Jail, and is an apologist for criminal vermin like the Jena Six. > [@](#): > > Since when do right-wingers give a flying fuck about scientific inquiry? Since they decided it might reveal something which intersects with their worldview. This is hardly a new phenomenon, and certainly not limited to the right. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/29 "2008-10-09T14:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Offered **without comment** , other than the underlining, which was “mine”. [/QUOTE] Offered without comment, other than the bolding and the underlining of “underlining” and the “quoting” of mine which was mine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/30 "2008-10-09T14:52:45Z")
Derbyshire actually claims the nature-nurture controversy has been **settled,** and in favor of nature. News to me. I’ve started a [GD thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=487047) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/31 "2008-10-09T15:15:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > With regard to which potential administration will “kill science”, I feel more comfortable with the prospect of an Obama presidency. Obama has firmly stated support for stem cell research ([contrast his views](http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=42) with those of John McCain). Wait a second. McCain has also promised federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. The two differ, as I understand it, only on the issue of harvesting embryonic stem cells from embryos created for that purpose (“fetal farming”). McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes and voted to ban the practice of fetal farming. Obama doesn’t seem to have taken an explicit position on fetal farming, but he has explicitly said he favors the research use of embryos created in in-vitro fertilization clinics that ended up not being used for reproductive purposes, when they are freely donated for same. In other words, embryos that would ultimately be destroyed anyway, says Obama, can be ethically be used for research. On this point, McCain does not appear to have taken an explicit position. > [@](#): > > Obama (after an initial stumble) has also backed mass vaccination (McCain has stated his belief in the discredited theory of an autism-vaccine connection). Here’s Obama’s quote: > [@Senator Obama](#): > > We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it. Was this the “initial stumble” you refer to, or the reversal? McCain: > [@Senator McCain](#): > > It’s indisputable that (autism) is on the rise among children, the question is what’s causing it. And we go back and forth and there’s strong evidence that indicates it’s got to do with a preservative in vaccines. Unless there’s a clarifying quote from either side, I don’t regard their positions as separated by wide gulf. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/32 "2008-10-09T15:33:20Z")
Any comment on the OP, **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/33 "2008-10-09T15:55:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Any comment on the OP, **Bricker**? I’m hesitant to comment, because before reading the linked article I was unfamiliar with the author. Based solely on the article, I’d say it’s absurd to imagine that an Obama administration would restrict research in the way that the author fears, and that his (the author’s) views don’t generally come across as credible. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/34 "2008-10-09T16:03:18Z")
While the quote from Obama on vaccinations isn’t great, it isn’t as bad as it initially seemed. Turns out he wasn’t referring to himself when he said “This person included.” The video in the attached link indicates that he was referring to someone in the audience when he said that. > **[The Washington Post - Breaking news and latest headlines, U.S. news, world...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/)** > > Breaking news, live coverage, investigations, analysis, video, photos and opinions from The Washington Post. Subscribe for the latest on U.S. and international news, politics, business, technology, climate change, health and wellness, sports,... Nevertheless, I hope that he more clearly now understands that the research is pretty strong and pretty conclusive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/35 "2008-10-09T16:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > …so many questions revolve around this centeredness I have… This is a chestnut. Mooseolini has an unrealized potential for language, perhaps even English! I propose we adopt this delightful little construct as an officially recognized SDMB stock phrase! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/36 "2008-10-09T16:18:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here’s Obama’s quote (re vaccination and autism): “We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.” When he said this he was responding to an audience member’s remarks at a public forum. “This person included” was apparently a reference to that individual, not Obama himself. I regard Obama’s not expliciting refuting a vaccine-autism connection (including previous remarks on the subject) as a stumble, for which he’s somewhat redeemed himself by subsequently s[tanding up to an Age of Autism antivaxer](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/barack_obama_provaccine.php) with the following comment: “I am not for selective vaccination, I believe that it will bring back deadly diseases, like polio.” McCain has [personally endorsed](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/john-mccain-ent.html), in the face of mounds of research, the belief that the thimerosal preservative that used to be in most childhood vaccines caused autism. He has not retracted that claim. > [@Bricker](#): > > Unless there’s a clarifying quote from either side, I don’t regard their positions as separated by wide gulf. Do you? Dunno about a “wide gulf”, but I see a clear separation. > [@](#): > > Wait a second. McCain has also promised federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. I suggest you look again at the relative level of enthusiasm between the candidates for this research, and who is emphasizing the science as opposed to ethical concerns - as well as continued hostility to embryonic stem cell research by the Republican Party and McCain’s own running mate. If he wins, are you assured that he will back federal funding of this research at the risk of further alienating a G.O.P. base which is already suspicious of him? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/37 "2008-10-09T16:23:24Z")
I have to say, I’m only familiar with NRO’s “The Corner,” where contributors make gay jokes about Barney Frank and believe that painting Obama as a tax-and-spend liberal is a mistake because it distracts from the fact that he is a terrorist-sympathizing Manchurian Candidate. If that reflects the wider organization, then this is low, but I’m not sure “new low” is an accurate label. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/38 "2008-10-09T16:42:19Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Since when do right-wingers give a flying fuck about scientific inquiry?😕 I am sure Bush and Cheney don’t represent all repubs. There are lots of intelligent,scientific types pushing the repub brand, There’s …well there has to be somebody. I can not think of any body i will get backatcha. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/39 "2008-10-09T16:44:03Z")
We should be accepting, nay, encouraging! A few levels lower, and Jonah Goldberg will be seized by Morlock! A twofer! Tighty righty eaten, Morlock poisoned, as good as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099/40 "2008-10-09T16:51:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Unless there’s a clarifying quote from either side, I don’t regard their positions as separated by wide gulf. Do you? They are indeed separated by a wide gulf, although both positions are equally risible in their own ways. Obama hides behind the coward’s battlecry, “more research is needed” (a phrase now banned from the British Medical Journal, incidentally). The results are not inconclusive; there is no decent evidence to show a link between vaccines and autism, and a substantial amount which suggests the opposite. Obama’s failing is a craven unwillingness to actually examine the evidence, blithely writing off the mountain of work that could quite easily inform him. McCain, by contrast, stands actively contrary to fact in declaring that there is “strong evidence” of a link. I suppose one might congratulate him for having the courage to take a definite position, but the fact remains that he is utterly at odds with the well-performed science, and is perpetrating a scare which carries a significant threat to public health. It’s breathtakingly irresponsible to wade in to such an important issue with such casual regard for the facts. The current vaccine/autism scares popular in both the USA and the UK (although suggestively, they focus on completely different causes) are examples of the travesty that the public understanding of science has become. The scientific position is not “inconclusive” because two different people in white coats disagree. The data speaks, but nobody listens. It’s hard to say which of the candidates’ positions is more damaging, but the fact is that both of them are significantly damaging understanding of an informal issue because they’re too cowardly to risk offending people with autistic children. For an overview of how these scares have progressed beyond all reason, see [this article](http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/) by the Guardian’s Ben Goldacre. It focuses on the UK’s MMR farrago, but the epidemiology of the scare is essentially the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/national-review-gets-out-jackhammers-digs-through-rock-bottom-to-find-whole-new-low/467099.md?page=3)