# Nations With Official (or Unofficial) Theocratic Tendencies **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921 "2009-08-27T16:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/21 "2009-08-28T11:09:33Z")
> [@Jerseyman](#): > > I can’t imagine any American getting elected to high office without appeal to _Gawd_ and I can’t imagine any European being trusted as sane enough to elect with it (outside of maybe Ireland, Poland and Russia) \ Italian Christian Democrat Party\ ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/22 "2009-08-28T11:54:38Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > …1) Ireland. An SDMB poster once mentioned that Ireland’s public schools are all run by the Catholic Church. He/she further went to say that if the schools are full, the Church may implement its right to only accept Catholic students, meaning that non-Catholic kids either have to get baptised Catholic, or enroll in a private school. Um, I apologize in advance if this is a hijack, but in the UK, a “public” school is what Americans call a “private” school. [This site](http://www.publicschools.co.uk/) offers a good explanation. So a public school run by the Catholic Church would not be a good example of the OP’s premise. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/23 "2009-08-28T13:50:13Z")
\>practically speaking being an attending member of a religion (and one religion in particular) appears to be almost a pre-requisite for election to government. Err, unlike which countries? Every country has a dominant religion. How many Islamic presidents has Argentina had? How many Jewish presidents has Russia had? How many Buddhist presidents has Iran had? How many atheist presidents has Australia had? While its “cool” to bash the US on all things on the web, I think its an unfair characterization. The US, unlike a lot of European and Asian countries, was founded as a secular country, which is almost unheard of. Yes, there’s a fair bit of religiosity, but calling it a de facto theocracy is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/24 "2009-08-28T14:20:59Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > Um, I apologize in advance if this is a hijack, but in the UK, a “public” school is what Americans call a “private” school. [This site](http://www.publicschools.co.uk/) offers a good explanation. So a public school run by the Catholic Church would not be a good example of the OP’s premise. That’s not exactly right, and besides Ireland is not part of the UK. The term “private school” is used in the UK. Public schools are a subset of private schools. They are the old, prestigious private schools that date back to the time before state-funded universal education. They may originally have been run on a chartiable basis, but they now charge fees, and very expensive fees too. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/25 "2009-08-28T14:35:14Z")
> [@HorseloverFat](#): > > While its “cool” to bash the US on all things on the web, I think its an unfair characterization. The US, unlike a lot of European and Asian countries, was founded as a secular country, which is almost unheard of. Yes, there’s a fair bit of religiosity, but calling it a de facto theocracy is ridiculous. Not exactly “unheard of.” Wikipedia has a [long list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#List_by_continent) of states that are officially secular. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/26 "2009-08-28T14:40:23Z")
American Taliban [The American Taliban](http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/27 "2009-08-28T15:45:44Z")
It should be noted that while most schools in the Republic Of Ireland are run by the Catholic Church that many of these schools have non-Catholic students and the issue of ones religion arises mainly where there is a scarcity of places in the school. There is also a significant non-denomational movement, the Educate Together Schools and a plethora of religious but not Catholic schools. To my mind, Ireland probably used to be a form of theocracy, but has ceased to be in recent years. Divorce is legal, support for legalising abortion is high, the church by and large does not get to determine the national political or cultural agenda in the ways it did in the past. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/28 "2009-08-28T15:48:07Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > That’s not exactly right, and besides Ireland is not part of the UK. The term “private school” is used in the UK. Public schools are a subset of private schools. They are the old, prestigious private schools that date back to the time before state-funded universal education. They may originally have been run on a chartiable basis, but they now charge fees, and very expensive fees too. Oops. Sorry. Ignorance spanked! ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/29 "2009-08-28T16:20:50Z")
I also think the biggest marker for unofficial theocratic tendancies is the non legalization of abortion. Its illegal almost all of the cases for religious reasons or by religious lobbying, especially Catholic. > [@](#): > > South America: > > Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Venezuela, > > Sub-Saharan Africa: > > Angola, Benin, Central African Rep.Chad, Congo, Cte d’Ivoire, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Gabon, Guinea- Bissau, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Mauritius, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda. > > Middle East and North Africa: > > Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Sudan (r), Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen. > > Asia and Pacific: > > Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sri Lanka. > > Europe: > > Ireland, Malta. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/30 "2009-08-28T16:32:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What would that established religion be and how is the government sponsoring it? The Church of England. 😕 C of E vicars, rectors, deacons, bishops, archbishops and so on are all paid a weekly stipend (effectively, their salary) by Her Majesty’s Government. I think that counts as state sponsorship, don’t you? > [@](#): > > The head of state is the monarch. Being the titular head of the established church is just one of the so-called duties of that particular position. It’s not quite that simple- the Sovereign’s coronation vows include one to defend the Church of England. The office of Supreme Governor/Defender of the Faith isn’t something separate and apart from the office of monarch. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/31 "2009-08-28T16:38:12Z")
**Really Not All That Bright** : Check my post again. I was asking what the established relgion _in the United States_ would be. Out of curiosity, though, does the salary for the Church of England personnel come from the government or from the parishioners? ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/32 "2009-08-28T16:48:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Church of England. 😕 > > C of E vicars, rectors, deacons, bishops, archbishops and so on are all paid a weekly stipend (effectively, their salary) by Her Majesty’s Government. I think that counts as state sponsorship, don’t you? Not true! _The Church of England, although an established church, does not receive any direct government support. Donations comprise its largest source of income, though it also relies heavily on the income from its various historic endowments. As of 2005, the Church of England had estimated total outgoings of around £900 million.[20]_ [Wikipedia Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England) That income is used to pay the stipends. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/33 "2009-08-28T16:53:27Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > \ Italian Christian Democrat Party\ Not to mention Germany - the largest party there is the Christian Democratic Union which is currently in power. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/34 "2009-08-28T17:00:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Really Not All That Bright** : Check my post again. I was asking what the established relgion _in the United States_ would be. > > Out of curiosity, though, does the salary for the Church of England personnel come from the government or from the parishioners? Ah. So you were. > [@Rayne\_Man](#): > > Not true! > > _The Church of England, although an established church, does not receive any direct government support. Donations comprise its largest source of income, though it also relies heavily on the income from its various historic endowments. As of 2005, the Church of England had estimated total outgoings of around £900 million.[20]_ > > [Wikipedia Article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England) > That income is used to pay the stipends. I stand corrected. However, those grants of land and stocks and the like that make up its endowments (but have presumably been shifted into more modern investments these days) did originally come from the Crown, for the most part, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/35 "2009-08-28T17:02:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > However, those grants of land and stocks and the like that make up its endowments (but have presumably been shifted into more modern investments these days) did originally come from the Crown, for the most part, didn’t they? Well, for the most part they came from Bequests, left in the Estate. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/36 "2009-08-28T17:21:04Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > What are they? Do they affect non-members of the C of E? I am by no means an expert on the subject, and I suspect the situation is rather similar to the powers of the monarchy, in that they have alot of power on paper, but if they ever tried to use it there would be public uproar, and would lose it sharpish. On paper at least, I _think_ the church of England is the “established religion” of the realm so all English citizens are considered members of the church of england, legally speaking. Additionally I think the “Peculiar Courts” are part of the Church of England that still have power over all members of the community in secular matters. If anyone (unlike myself) actually is an expert of this kind of thing I’d be interested to have a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/37 "2009-08-28T17:25:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The head of state is the monarch. Being the titular head of the established church is just one of the so-called duties of that particular position. So the head of the secular government is also the head of the state religion. That pretty much defines theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/38 "2009-08-28T17:28:49Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So the head of the secular government is also the head of the state religion. That pretty much defines theocracy. Well, it’s not like she actually has any real power in either sphere. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/39 "2009-08-28T17:30:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, it’s not like she actually has any real power in either sphere. No, but the head of government (ie., the PM) is responsible for [del]appointing bishops[/del] recommending canons for appointment by the Queen, and he _does_ have real power. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921/40 "2009-08-28T17:32:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, it’s not like she actually has any real power in either sphere. Quite which is exactly my point, on paper the UK is a theocracy, and the US is avowedly secular. In reality the UK is avowedly secular, and the US is much closer to being a theocracy that any other western country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nations-with-official-or-unofficial-theocratic-tendencies/507921.md?page=3)