# Native America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367 "2002-12-13T00:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/201 "2002-12-22T22:17:31Z")
have you ever read ‘knights of the horseshoe?’… neither have i. you can only get so much info on a limited scan on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com). that was what was cited, but it wasn’t the same date as the book you mentioned. there can be four possibilities from this: he was lying. the citation was screwed up somehow. it wasn’t a citation from the book but perhaps from one of the numerous historical articles the author had written (the author was very interested in history and wrote a great deal on it i found out, not just through historical fiction novels). or, he quoted from the book which indeed had information on jackson’s involvement at horseshoe bend. some books do indeed include info from various points of geography and historical events, ya know, especially when they tie in to certain events in the time period. so that’s that, and it is what it is, and unless either of us has ever read what is being cited there, which i’m tempted to do now, can’t exactly comment so definitively on it, can ya? ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/202 "2002-12-22T22:22:24Z")
meanwhile, i forgot to mention your sources again… the one attributed fort mims and atrocities directly to tecumseh, while you wanted us to believe tecumseh was not only for such things but for such things done so haphazardly on settlers throughout the land, which would have provoked the militias into action and given them the just cause to attack he and others they so desperately sought that would’ve done great damage to his confederacy, and all his hard work over years… sure. that’s believeable, especially given the direct contrast between that and what historical sources say on the matter. you’ve never picked up a book on tecumseh, just perused some websites and pieced together whatever you found. so, don’t pretend to be in a position to speak on the matter when you haven’t devoted any amount of time to it. that’s an insult to numerous people. then one of your sources said that seekabo was called the prophet, and was a shawnee. actually, tecumseh’s brother was ‘the prophet,’ not seekabo. seekabo wasn’t even a shawnee. another of the sources you threw out said as much also, and when i pointed this out to you, you conveniently ignored it. so… heh. so much for that ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/203 "2002-12-23T00:57:30Z")
**jac** wrote: > [@](#): > > that was what was cited, but it wasn’t the same date as the book you mentioned. Same title, same author. Nothing whatsoever to do with the point for which it was cited. Sure sounds like a falsified cite to me. > [@](#): > > have you ever read ‘knights of the horseshoe?’… neither have i. No, but I do know that [the Atlanta-Fulton County Library site](http://afplweb.af.public.lib.ga.us:80/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+19532+701+103616+1+-1) says it’s a fictional account of the life of Alexander Spotswood (1676-1740) (a good 100 years before the battle of Horseshoe Bend) and describes the novel as “a traditionary tale of the cocked-hat gentry of the Old Dominion.” Hmm. The Atlanta-Fulton County Library is just down the street, and their site says they have a copy. Maybe I’ll stroll down and check it out. Sounds like a ripping yarn! I’m pretty sure I won’t learn anything about the Creek War by reading it, though… > [@](#): > > meanwhile, i forgot to mention your sources again… the one attributed fort mims and atrocities directly to tecumseh, while you wanted us to believe tecumseh was not only for such things but for such things done so haphazardly on settlers throughout the land, which would have provoked the militias into action and given them the just cause to attack he and others they so desperately sought that would’ve done great damage to his confederacy, and all his hard work over years… sure. No. None of my sources attributed the atrocities at Ft. Mims _directly_ to Tecumseh. Instead, those sources show that Tecumseh spoke to the Creeks, and that he advocated just the sort of massacre that the Creeks (or at least the Red Sticks faction of them) later carried out at Ft. Mims. Since you insist on pressing this point, here again are [Tecumseh’s own words](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?isbn=0142001287&displayonly=excerpt) (spoken to the Creeks): > [@](#): > > Burn their dwellings-destroy their stock-slay their wives and children, that the very breed may perish. **jac** wrote: > [@](#): > > you’ve never picked up a book on tecumseh, just perused some websites and pieced together whatever you found. so, don’t pretend to be in a position to speak on the matter when you haven’t devoted any amount of time to it. that’s an insult to numerous people. How the hell do _you_ know what I’ve read? In fact, I’ve read the very book from which the above excerpt of Tecumseh’s speech was taken. You’re the one citing sources you haven’t read. That’s how you got caught on the ridiculous Knights of the Horseshoe cite. Surely you remember the exchange: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by spoke-_ > > > > Women and children were most definitely not targeted by Jackson at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. [This site](http://www.larkcom.com/ancestry/-home/history/war/war_of_1812/battle_of_horseshoe_bend.htm) confirms that Jackson’s troops allowed the women and children to cross the river to safety before the battle began, and that between 300 and 500 women and children were taken prisoner (estimates varied). Some small number of women and children did die in the course of the battle (possibly in the shelling that preceded the assault), but it appears that the great bulk of them were spared. > > > > If you have sources that say otherwise, please produce them. > > _[**jac** ’s reply_]: > > i _did_ produce one. it’s a book. **“the knights of the horseshoe,” by william alexander caruthers**. most likely you won’t be able to find this accoutn since it was written about 1835 i believe, but it is nonetheless **one used often in scholarly research you will find cited**. it does not tell of the mutilations which occurred however. Speaking of falsifying cites…there you were, **jac** , citing a book which you now admit you’ve never even seen, and which the rest of us now know to be a novel that has nothing to do with the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. This is a tiresome thread, and you are a tiresome fellow. This board is dedicated to _fighting_ ignorance, and you seem determined to _spread_ the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/204 "2002-12-27T03:50:29Z")
wow… here you are, having ignored my mention of your conflicting sources for the umpteenth time, trying to take digs at me on one of my sources… some kind of nerve you have there spoke. not only that, but i gave you online source you seem to have ignored as well because it didn’t fit your preconceived reverie and whatever else you’d like to imagine, mentioning the purposeful murder of a child there, and the killing of an elderly blind indian who appeared also to possibly be mute because one of jackson’s soldiers wanted to brag back home about having killed an indian, among many of the atrocities committed there. if you only pick and choose what you want to address, no wonder you never seem to get anything and progress is never had. you’ve dug your heels in because it seems the only thing you know how to accomplish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367.md?page=10)