# Native America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367 "2002-12-13T00:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/21 "2002-12-13T04:10:05Z")
5-HT wrote: > [@](#): > > for the record, I don’t like children Yeah, well, I was using a valid literary affect, foreshadowing, to lead gracefully into the question at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/22 "2002-12-13T04:25:27Z")
My cat’s breath smells like the Christmas tree. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/23 "2002-12-13T04:41:11Z")
Another thing is, once a thread goes off course, it can be _real_ hard getting it back on topic. C’mon people. We have whole forums to talk about [what our cats’ breath smells like](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=4) or to [swap _Simpsons_ quotes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=13) in. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/24 "2002-12-13T05:10:30Z")
Manifest Destiny was an excuse to take what the WASP’s in power wanted: Most of North America. I don’t think very many people of the time were thinking genocide. The yellow journalists slanted the news in whatever way they saw fit anyways. And genocide? I’m still here. My maternal grandmother was Native American, didn’t die till 1995. In many people’s way of reckoning, I would count as a Native American, even tho I look more like my paternal ancestors (Prussian). Even _attempted_ genocide might not be the most reasonble way to look at it. BTW, FTR, there were alot of surviving American Indian tribes. Does this get it back to topic, over excitable putz? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/25 "2002-12-13T07:45:21Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **NoClueBoy** , please don’t use direct personal insults (“over excitable putz”) in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/26 "2002-12-13T07:49:00Z")
Aw shucks… How about the smiley? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/27 "2002-12-13T11:57:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*Aw shucks… > > How about the smiley? \*\* I saw someone (the lovable old **sweet willy** , IIRC) get slapped down for using it as an insult outside the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/28 "2002-12-13T14:13:03Z")
Is this supposed to be a debate about Indian Hater Jackson? Or about Indians in general? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/29 "2002-12-13T15:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Is this supposed to be a debate about Indian Hater Jackson? Or about Indians in general? Or what? \*\* Seems to fluctuate between the Jackson question and Native American genocide in general. * * * FWIW, I rarely read rules (because I think I’m so damn smart), but I reread the rules, or code of conduct, whatever you want to call it, and… I erred in posting a personal slight in a non pit thread. I don’t think the OP requires a pitting, tho, just a reminder to be more clear and to expect some flippant responses. Happens in real life, too. (Others had already done a good job of that, btw) So, I take back and apologize for the last sentance of my first post in this thread, but the rest of it stands. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/30 "2002-12-13T21:25:01Z")
i don’t think puma understood the ralph wiggum reference, but reciprocally neither do any of you appear to understand how that and other off-topic banter could put he and others off. it trivializes serious issues. do you get that? noclueboy, i’m taken aback that you think only attributing “attempted genocide” is the closest thing to a reasonable assessment of european invasion and subsequent policies, to the present even, regarding native americans. explain. i’d also like to know what definition of genocide you’re employing to reach that conclusion, and also what instances in history do you see as genocidal (and if you will, why?)? ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/31 "2002-12-13T21:28:59Z")
i also might add, where confused about the purpose of a thread, why not ask for clarification? just because you don’t understand its aim doesn’t give anyone license to take in their own direction out of personal caprice. c’mon now ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/32 "2002-12-13T21:39:19Z")
I _did_ ask. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/33 "2002-12-13T21:42:48Z")
**PumaClaw** , don’t let the reaction to your OP get you down. Stick around. You may find some allies for your position here. (Certainly **Libertarian** feels as strongly about Jackson as you do. Trust me on this one.) Is there a particular question you want to throw out for further debate? Or an unfinished thought from the other thread you want to continue? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/34 "2002-12-13T21:43:35Z")
I said “might not be”. Look again. I think the imperialistic drive of white europeans was entirely selfish and most reprehensible of all were the “Christians” finding a new place for their blood lusts. But, were the rank and file, even most of the leaders, really trying to entirely wipe out a race of peoples? I don’t think so. (And this _is_ the forum for opinions) What I see as having occured was the desire for supremecy, whatever the cost. But, not purposeful genocide. I think we were meant to be discussing intentions, not outcome. When it comes down to it, though, I wasn’t there. History is written by the victors and they _will_ bias their stories. What instances do I view as genocidal? The Holocaust. And the 3rd Crusade. (I may have my Crusades mixed up. The one where the Euoropean Christians meant to kill off everyone not of their own in Jerusalem, even the Eastern Christians) Hope that clears up my opinion a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/35 "2002-12-13T21:53:58Z")
Spoke wrote: > [@](#): > > (Certainly Libertarian feels as strongly about Jackson as you do. Trust me on this one.) Thank you for recognizing that, Spoke. Maybe you and I could call a truce, and smoke a pipe of peace. 🙂 NoClueBoy wrote: > [@](#): > > I think the imperialistic drive of white europeans was entirely selfish and most reprehensible of all were the “Christians” finding a new place for their blood lusts. You got _that_ right. Have you read [Amerigo Vespucci’s account](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1497vespucci-america.html) of his first voyage? Here’s the last sentence (!!) from it: > [@](#): > > They were of good bodily presence, and seemed right warlike men: for they were armed with their weapons, which are bows, arrows, and lances: and most of them had square wooden targets: and bore them in such wise that they did not impede the drawing of the bow: and when we had come with our boats to about a bowshot of the land, they all sprang into the water to shoot their arrows at us and to prevent us from leaping upon shore: and they all had their bodies painted of various colours, and (were) plumed with feathers: and the interpreters who were with us told us that when (those) displayed themselves so painted and plumed, it was to betoken that they wanted to fight: and so much did they persist in preventing us from landing, that we were compelled to play with our artillery: and when they heard the explosion, and saw one of them fall dead, they all drew back to the land: wherefore, forming our council, we resolved that 42 of our men should spring on shore, and, if they waited for us, fight them: thus having leaped to land with our weapons, they advanced towards us, and we fought for about an hour, for we had but little advantage of them, except that our arbalasters and gunners killed some of them, and they wounded certain of our men: and this was because they did not stand to receive us within reach of lance-thrust or sword-blow: and so much vigour did we put forth at last, that we came to sword-play, and when they tasted our weapons, they betook themselves to flight through the mountains and the forests, and left us conquerors of the field with many of them dead and a good number wounded: and for that day we’ took no other pains to pursue them, because we were very weary, and we returned to our ships, with so much gladness on the part of the seven men who had come with us that they could not contain themselves (for joy): and when the next day arrived, we beheld coming across the land a great number of people, with signals of battle, continually sounding horns, and various other instruments which they use in their wars: and all (of them) painted and feathered, so that it was a very strange sight to behold them: wherefore all the ships held council, and it was resolved that since this people desired hostility with us, we should proceed to encounter them and try by every means to make them friends: in case they would not have our friendship, that we should treat them as foes, and so many of them as we might be able to capture should all be our slaves: and having armed ourselves as best we could, we advanced towards the shore, and they sought not to hinder us from landing, I believe from fear of the cannons: and we jumped on land, 57 men in four squadrons, each one (consisting of) a captain and his company: and we came to blows with them: and after a long battle (in which) many of them (were) slain, we put them to flight, and pursued them to a village, having made about 250 of them captives, and we burnt the village, and returned to our ships with victory and 250 prisoners, leaving many of them dead and wounded, and of ours there were no more than one killed and 22 wounded, who all escaped (i.e., recovered), God be thanked. We arranged our departure, and seven men, of whom five were wounded, took an island-canoe, and with seven prisoners that we gave them, four women and three men, returned to their (own) country full of gladness, wondering at our strength: and we thereon made sail for Spain with 222 captive slaves: and reached the port of Calis (Cadiz) on the 15th day of October, 1498, where we were well received and sold our slaves. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/36 "2002-12-14T01:32:36Z")
-I said “might not be”. Look again. I think the imperialistic drive of white europeans was entirely selfish and most reprehensible of all were the “Christians” finding a new place for their blood lusts. But, were the rank and file, even most of the leaders, really trying to entirely wipe out a race of peoples? I don’t think so. (And this is the forum for opinions) What I see as having occured was the desire for supremecy, whatever the cost. But, not purposeful genocide. I think we were meant to be discussing intentions, not outcome. genocide does not require one wipe out an entire race of peoples. if so, then your example of what you consider as such below, being the holocaust (i’m not going to get into the crusades) was not genocide either since that was a long ways from being accomplished with respect to any of the groups targeted. in fact, the amerindian race on a whole suffered greater losses, numerically and percentage-wise than any of those affected by the holocaust as well. in fact, unbeknownst to most, genocide does not even require the killing of a single person to be accomplished on some level… this is why i asked you more or less what you considered to be genocide. most people who throw the word around do not have a firm grasp of what it actually entails. i would advise using raphael lemkin’s definition or the summation of that adopted by the u.n. genocide convention regarding the word. the former is the original definition of the word and intentions for its usage, the latter will suffice. -What instances do I view as genocidal? The Holocaust. what differences do you see in, for instance, what happened to the indians of california, or those of the caribbean compared to the holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/37 "2002-12-14T01:46:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _from jac_ > > in fact, unbeknownst to most, genocide does not even require the killing of a single person to be accomplished on some level… this is why i asked you more or less what you considered to be genocide. most people who throw the word around do not have a firm grasp of what it actually entails. i would advise using raphael lemkin’s definition or the summation of that adopted by the u.n. genocide convention regarding the word. the former is the original definition of the word and intentions for its usage, the latter will suffice. So… You gonna let us in on it? Or let us all wallow around in our own filth? Sorry if this sounds trite, but now _you’re_ not making yourself very clear. And please, please, please, use a capital letter every now and then. But, back to the point, I appreciate your point of view, (or what I think is your point of view, based on what you’ve posted) I just don’t agree with it. Post on, Brother. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/38 "2002-12-14T02:50:17Z")
here is the word’s true definition, as given by its neologist rafael (raphael) lemkin, as stated in his book “axis rule of occupied europe”: “Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destrcution of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves [even if all individuals within the dissolved group physically survive]. The objectives of such a plan would be a disintegration of political and social instutitions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belong to such groups. Genocide is directed at the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed at individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.” please understand the implications of the word’s definition here, which is, as i said, the true definition (he of course coined the term); how it was originally intended. then apply it accordingly. i don’t think there’s anyway you could escape acknowledging the burden of genocide the u.s. and its predecessors carry knowing the history and policies involved. here is the more succinct version adapted from lemkin’s by the u.n. though it does expound fully on each of the areas, it does an adequate job of inclusion and laying out the basic tenets all the same. Article II. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on members of the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transfering children of the group to another group. on that last definition alone, the u.n.'s, i can count instances where the united states alone has done each to native americans. and i was still wondering what you thought the differences were between the holocaust and what happened to the natives of california and the caribbean. i could’ve picked any region, but i chose those. i guess what’s more important here is why you consider the holocaust genocide. i would agree of course, but i’d like to know for what reasons. i bet i can apply those with respect to the regions i mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/39 "2002-12-14T02:55:20Z")
sorry about the posting style, but i just rarely bother with caps. i’m not gonna cater to anyone regarding that either as i don’t see a need to be formal, but i hope it doesn’t turn anyone away from what i’m saying at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367/40 "2002-12-14T03:07:27Z")
Ah… that does change it, doesn’t it? For the Holocaust, I would say all five fit. But, with this more succinct (sp?) def of “genocide” I can see why even the attempt fits the word. So, from the Jewish invasion of Caanan, through the forced relocation of Native Americans, down to the massacres of Hutus and Croats, it’s all Genocide. Thanks for the clarifying post. (See? Now _that’s_ what I’m talking about!) BTW, I don’t take the Trail of Tears saga lightly. Some of those people were among my ancestors. I have a very mixed lineage. Though I often lamented the crimes, I never once thought of it as a Genocide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-america/142367.md?page=3)