Native American arrival questions

Anyone can claim anything. I can claim the entirety of the world as mine and ‘Boom!’ It is thusly claimed! Welcome to the Free State of ParaSenoia. The question you really have is what does that claim mean? Largely it means that I exert some sort of control over it. Usually we mean political control, but sometimes cultural control or racial hegemony. We also sometimes mean that they have some sort of moral right to the land. Since obviously, the first two only apply in regards to Native Americans to very small regions within North America we can really only focus on the last. The problem with moral claims is that they are largely opinion and they hinge on whatever the person observing the situation feels about it. There might be some sort of objective morality regarding land claims, but most major religions are pretty iffy on it.

Current thinking of ‘claim’ generally comes from Christian thought, notably the ‘Doctrine of Discovery’ based largely on the Romanus Pontifex papal bull of 1454 (and added to later by the Inter Caetera.) The essential idea that was later interpreted into it was that the Church was ultimately the decider of borders and that non-Christian nations did not enjoy the protection of the Church, so whichever Christian nation found it, got to keep it. Obviously, this was problematic, but it largely informed the thinking of the conquest of the Americas (Despite being written 40 years before Christendom even knew about the Americas. It was written to solve issues about North African claims between Spain and Portugal and was largely written in response to wartime conditions between Muslims and Christians and had very little to do with natives, but I digress.) Later, American courts (notably the Supreme Court case of Johnson v M’intosh) enshrined that doctrine into US law.

Of course, Christians being who Christians are- when you put three of them in a room, you get four different opinions, so this is not a universally accepted moral claim for obvious reasons. Some Protestants as an example loved this idea and embraced it pretty whole-heartedly. Some were ambivalent and some thought it was a horrible thing. Nowadays, Christendom as a whole has largely rejected the idea of the ‘Doctrine of Discovery,’ but doesn’t really know how to rectify the situation. The cat’s kind of out of the bag. It’s not like every American of European descent can just pack up and go home. Most of us don’t even know where ‘home’ is. There are also five million Native Americans and 320 million everyone else in the US, so it seems a bit crazy at this point to start evacuating Manhattan. Moral thinking about ‘claim’ has become much more pragmatic among the religious. There’s a fairly large consensus that Natives were screwed. There’s a smaller, but still majority view that they are still being screwed and that the appropriate response is to invest in economic development and help address old claims where practical.

Anyway, I got really off-topic, but it’s only to say that a ‘moral claim’ really isn’t a defined thing. If you as an individual think that Grugg the first guy who made it to America and his descendants are the only people with moral claim to the Americas, then good on you. That’s as legitimate a stance as any. I would say it would be a very tiny minority stance, but if that’s your line, then that’s your line. My personal stance is that it’s complicated and who owned what prior to the Europeans showing up was constantly shifting. Re-litigating the past is neither practical nor particularly helpful. A better stance is what’s happening now and is it just? My answer is that largely it is not just. The reservation system is broken and steps need to be taken to address Indigenous Rights and provide economic and educational opportunities to Native peoples. I’m not particularly interested in who ‘owns’ Mt. Rushmore, I am much more concerned with why Ziebach County is consistently one of the poorest counties in the country with a per capita income that is the same as Angola’s and what we should be doing to address that.

Since you woke it up ------- if I understand your questions …

a) Your assumption is actually something debated a fair bit in academic circles now especially since the whole Clovis vs. Meadowcroft war started. There is some good evidence that Europeans could have made it here as early as or earlier than Asians. A lot of things stand in the way of ever setting a “first settler” point of origin but its not the hard-and-fast “Bering Bridge” world it was 40 years ago. Some of the new genetics stuff like you participated in is adding to some of the debate but so far not so much so to the answers.

b) Most Native-Americans would debate “just what do you mean by claim?” Among them and some scholars the understanding is that First Settlers (whoever they were) came here as individuals and not as representatives of Nations as the later people did. Some founded Nations but they didn’t have quite the understanding or definitions that Europeans did. They had use of the land, lived on it and used what it provided, but did they actually have claim or a sense of title? More over the resources than the land itself. If you look at some of the early interactions post-1492 you get a sense of what they mean.

Exactly. The way I understood the “migration” to have worked is that bands of people went across the Bering Strait land bridge (while it was still there), and basically stayed just on the N. American side. Eventually some of them split off and moved elsewhere for better hunting, farming, fishing, etc…

Repeat that procedure a whole lot, and throw in that the original groups still continued to grow, and you get a mix of groups splitting and migrating elsewhere, combined with groups being displaced by other groups and having to move.

It wasn’t like a tribe left Siberia, walked across, then kept going past the other more established settlers for thousands of miles until a nice area opened up that they could settle their people on.

From my quip from two years ago, there’s a serious confusion about what a “claim” was.
Back in the days when nations went around claiming various lands, you could plant your flag somewhere and declare “I claim this land for King Phillip of Spain!” But what exactly were you doing?

You weren’t changing the metaphysical properties of any land. Instead you were asserting that King Phillip of Spain now owned this land. And what that meant wasn’t that God was opening up some books up in Heaven and putting white-out on some borders drawn there. What you were asserting was that King Phillip now regarded these lands as his. And since King Phillip had a vast army of soldiers and a vast navy and bureaucrats and priests and spies and tax collectors, if you disagreed with King Phillip there was going to be a problem. Maybe the problem was going to be with King Phillip, but since he was King of Spain and you weren’t, more likely you were going to have the problem.

But of course various lands exchanged hands between various sovereigns all the time. Someone would lose a war, and as a result would agree to hand over such and such lands to the winner. The alternative was to continue the war. Now, why would the winner want to end the war? Why not just fight on until the loser was utterly vanquished and you controlled all his territory? Because wars are super expensive, even if you win. The winner might be in a stronger position, but they typically want the war to end as well. And if they can get the loser to agree to hand over some territory or gold or whatever, then both are better off than if the war continues.

Of course sometimes the demands between the two or more sides are asymmetrical. One side wants the war to end, but the other side for whatever reason doesn’t, or they keep starting the war up again. And then the war goes on for a hundred years. They had a name for that war, it was The Hundred Years War.

The point is, you can proclaim yourself the ruler of some land, but unless you have soldiers willing to help you enforce your claim, no one else will agree with you. The flag part is just a joke. The real reason the Spanish thought they could claim the Americas wasn’t because the Aztecs didn’t have a flag, it was because the Spanish had guns, germs, and steel, and they won the various wars, and they enforced their rule for generations.

If the point is that all that is true, and so then why do we bother pretending to care about Native Americans at all? Why not just send some soldiers to the remaining reservations and shoot them all?

What would that accomplish, exactly? The reservations aren’t exactly prime productive land, you know. That’s why they were made into reservations.

This is why “adverse possession” is a thing. Even if that person had the wherewithal to claim all of the Americas, they could hardly stop, or even notice, other people living there subsequently in most of that area.

Even if the modern concept of land ownership was in place, people would keep taking parts of their land through squatting until their claim was down to some reasonable area.

Guns, horses and steel. The Spaniards didn’t know about the germ-things but they were very found of their guns, their horses and their steel. I know you’re referencing Diamond’s book, but please don’t make what was a complete accident sound as if it was biological warfare (which people did, in fact, know and practice).