# Native Americans unable to see Columbus's ships? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233 "2005-04-26T20:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/81 "2005-04-29T07:50:28Z")
> [@Avumede](#): > > This is the fight against ignorance, guys, so let me try and throw an actual fact in the mix. > > Although this was slightly later than Columbus, the first Aztecs to see the European ships believed they were new mountains in the water. Only when some of them were taken aboard the ship did they comprehend that it actually was a ship. > > So did they see a ship? well, yes, they saw a ship, but they did not perceive it a ship. They sure as hell saw something, though, and they knew it wasn’t normal. I have no trouble believing that, in fact **FinnAgain** started a related debate… > **[Towards a unified theory of perception, cognition, language, Reality and...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=305734)** > > "Out of the stream of sensation, the mind carves objects in space and actions in time…” (Tversky, 2004) “\[The\] truth is modeled as an object in the domain of a semantic model to which sentences are mapped by an interpretation function.” (Hinzen,... One of his cites contained the following anecdote: \*\*"The anthropologist Colin Turnbull described what happened in the former Congo in the 1950s when a BaMbuti pygmy, used in living in the dense Ituri forest (which had only small clearings), went with him to the plains: And then he saw the buffalo, still grazing lazily several miles away, far down below. He turned to me and said, ‘What insects are those?’ At first I hardly understood, then I realized that in the forest vision is so limited that there is no great need to make an automatic allowance for distance when judging size. Out here in the plains, Kenge was looking for the first time over apparently unending miles of unfamiliar grasslands, with not a tree worth the name to give him any basis for comparison… When I told Kenge that the insects were buffalo, he roared with laughter and told me not to tell such stupid lies. (Turnbull 1963, 217) Because Kenge had no experience of seeing distant objects he saw them simply as small.\*\* That was from: [http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/MC10220/visper03.html](http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/MC10220/visper03.html) ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/82 "2005-04-29T10:18:26Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > BTW, nice of Moctezuma to tell the guy “he could rest now” after the guy decides of his own initiative to haul it all the way up to Mexico to give a report to the High Chief, after having had his ears and toes cut off… What’s actually worse is that his hospitality to the poor bloke seems to have been slightly ambiguous at best: the bit I didn’t type in is that he then turns to an official and issues the instruction “Take him to the prison, and guard him well.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/83 "2005-04-29T15:15:40Z")
That Moctezuma, he was such a wit… 😃 But if he ever said the phrase “Eat your heart out” you knew you were in trouble… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/84 "2005-04-29T15:35:23Z")
This talk about misidentifyuing ships reminds me of Frederick J. Pohl’s claims in his book **Prince Henry Sinclar: His Voyage to the New World in 1398** , in which he claims that the legends of Glooskap were inspired by Henry Sinclair’s visit, and that the island he built, with trees on it and sailed away on was really a European-style ship. This site gives the story (although Pohl’s book is the source): [http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/backissues/sinclair.html](http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/backissues/sinclair.html) > [@](#): > > Certainly, the number of Norse and Gaelic words in the languages of the Algonquin tribes indicates that trade had been taking place between Europe and America before the time of Columbus. Micmac indians of the 14th century tell legends of a blond haired, blue eyed god who they called “Glooscap,” whose friendly manner won the hearts of the natives. He treated them fairly and taught them to fish with nets. Indeed, fishing was a natural pastime for Sinclair’s companions. According to a Micmac Legend, “[Glooscap] built himself an island, planted trees on it, and sailed away in his stone canoe.” They also spoke of the men who built Newport Tower as “fire-haired men with green eyes.” Of course, despite the appeal of the idea, it’s highly questionable that Sinclair actually did make the voyage. But, even if he did, Glooskap was the Micmac cultural hero, and I kinda doubt he’d be inspired by a European. It smacks of Eurocentrism to believe that to be so. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/85 "2005-04-29T15:47:06Z")
There seem to be a lot of people alive today, in our own “Western” culture, who have such strong preconceptions that they are blind to certain facts of reality that seem “obvious” to other people. In quite a few religious or political discussions, how many times have you wanted to grab someone’s head, point it to a fact, and yell “Look, dammit!”? But I’ve gotta admit, the Native American “syndrome” seems a wee bit farfetched. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/86 "2005-04-29T16:57:11Z")
[SEP field technology](http://www.psychcentral.com/psypsych/wiki/Somebody_Else's_Problem_field) Where did Columbus get flashlight batteries? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/87 "2005-04-29T18:33:20Z")
The dazzle cammo on ships work on the same princepal as a zebra’s stripes. Remember the ships that the subs are hunting are running in a convoy like a herd of animals. The cammo breaks up the continuity of a single ship and it is hard for the eye to focus on just one. To get the range and bearing and speed of the target the WWII sub camander had to watch the ships and try to take measure. The dazzle cammo made that harder. That movie is wacked. But then again it might explain why nobody has ever seen me having sex. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/88 "2005-04-29T18:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > There seem to be a lot of people alive today, in our own “Western” culture, who have such strong preconceptions that they are blind to certain facts of reality that seem “obvious” to other people. In quite a few religious or political discussions, how many times have you wanted to grab someone’s head, point it to a fact, and yell “Look, dammit!”? True, that, and it shows up in physics, too. Show a five-year-old a mirror, and he’ll instantly recognize that the images in it are three-dimensional and behind the mirror. Show an 18-year-old, and more often than not, he’ll insist that the images are flat and confined to the surface, despite what his eyes are seeing, because he can’t conceive of a two-dimensional object producing a three-dimensional image. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/89 "2005-04-29T19:06:38Z")
> [@BMax](#): > > So this is like the _Handbook for the Recently Deceased_: Most People will not see ghosts because they refuse to see the strange and unusual. If that’s true, how come everytime I turn on Fox News, they’re talking about Micheal Jackson? He’s the defination of “Strange and Unusual”. Why did the News Networks have people camped outside Martha Stewarts house looking through her kitchen window while she was making coffee? That kind of attention is bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/90 "2005-04-29T19:19:32Z")
> [@Wasafiri](#): > > I suppose I could also say that when Windows 2000 or XP came out, I couldn’t “see” them because the concept of a (relatively) crash-free OS didn’t exist to me? Bunk. See MacOS, OS/2, Linux, all or most remotely successful incarnations of Unix, BSD, BeOS, all/most incarnations of DOS, and every other non-Microsoft OS that’s ever been vaguely commercially viable. What’s strange about 2000/XP is not that it’s a crash-free OS, but rather that it’s a relatively crash-free Microsoft OS. As usual, Microsoft broke away from standards and got you to believe that theirs was the standard all along. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/91 "2005-04-29T19:36:52Z")
Say, I seem to have misplaced my galaphonum. Has anyone seen it? No? Oh, well . . . . ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/92 "2005-04-30T00:28:33Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It claimed that when Columbus first came to the new world, the natives there couldn’t see his ships. That because the ships were so outside the natives’ mental framework, they simply couldn’t perceive them. Finally a shaman noticed that something was blocking the waves at that spot, and eventually was able to “show” his tribe how to see the ships. > > . . . > > Does anyone know where this anecdote originated from? To address this specifically, it was completely made up. I just checked the account of Columbus’ landfall as it is described in _Admiral of the Ocean Sea_. Columbus landed in small boats on October 12, and by the 13th at the latest the Taino were going out to his ships in canoes and coming on board to trade enthusiastically. There is not the slightest hint in Columbus’ account that the Taino had any difficulty in recognizing his ships, either at his first landfall or later on - and of course the Taino left no account of their own. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/93 "2005-04-30T16:18:42Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > daffyduck writes: > > \> Millions of Native Americans couldn’t see Columbus’s ships because Columbus > \> was in the Caribbean and, necessarily, on or near the ocean. I’ll bet those ships > \> were mighty small when trying to see them from the Ohio valley. > > But they did see him. And they were very impressed by his ships. That’s why they named a city after him. That was genius. A welcome break to the stupidity about racism which almost successfully derailed an interesting discussion. ---
**Author:** ![guinnog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@guinnog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guinnog)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/94 "2005-04-30T17:51:40Z")
> [@August West](#): > > I know you are just joking around, but during WWII the Allies did experiment with a very bizarre camouflage scheme called “Dazzle” WW1. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/95 "2005-04-30T21:46:06Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > A couple decades ago, I lived in San Diego. One evening I saw a plane landing at Miramar NAS that the news had told me, only a matter of days before, did not exist. Wouldn’t be built and that was that. > BUT I STILL SAW IT! (It was the Stealth Bomber) M’am, if you would please accompany the Escort Team to the awaiting vehicle, this will all be straightened out in the next 60 to 90 minutes. No, M’am, you needn’t bring any I.D. or worry about shoes. Where you’re going, you won’t need shoes. 😃 😃 😃 Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/96 "2005-05-01T00:26:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > But I’ve gotta admit, the Native American “syndrome” seems a wee bit farfetched. You racist pig! They’re called First Peoples, not Native Americans! Shame! ---
**Author:** ![guinnog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@guinnog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guinnog)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/97 "2005-05-01T11:16:22Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > To get the range and bearing and speed of the target the WWII sub camander had to watch the ships and try to take measure. The dazzle cammo made that harder. WW1. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/98 "2005-05-01T17:49:54Z")
Hoodoo Ulove writes: \> You racist pig! They’re called First Peoples, not Native Americans! Shame! My impression is that “First Peoples” is the standard Canadian expression now and “Native Americans” is the standard American term now. But, of course, that’s irrelevant to this discussion, since this encounter happened in the Caribbean. What’s the standard term now for the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Caribbean? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/99 "2005-05-01T18:20:47Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > What’s the standard term now for the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Caribbean? Indians/_indios_, if anything. There is little need for a modern “politically sensitive” term (if I may call it that), since the original inhabitants of the Caribbean were wiped out very quickly. The Taino are long gone, and the few remaining Caribs and others are mostly very intermixed with European and African blood. ---
**Author:** ![rhettbutler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rhettbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhettbutler)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233/100 "2005-05-02T07:25:30Z")
I haven’t seen the movie in question, but I think I remember reading this claim in Candace Pert’s book _Molecules of Emotion_. It sounded like a load of crap to me; that book was good at first, quite informative and interesting, describing how she discovered the opiate receptor and moving on to some neurology, but then it seemed to take a bizarre New Age turn. I wonder if Ms. Pert was the source for the claim in the movie being discussed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/native-americans-unable-to-see-columbuss-ships/301233.md?page=6)