# NATO Commander: We're One Friedman Away From Losing Afghanistan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741 "2006-10-08T20:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/1 "2006-10-08T20:39:43Z")
[I started to post this in GD](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061008/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan_4), but then it turned into a rant: > [@](#): > > NATO’s top commander in Afghanistan said Sunday the country was at a tipping point and warned Afghans would likely switch their allegiance to resurgent Taliban militants if there are no visible improvements in people’s lives in the next six months. > > Gen. David Richards, a British officer who commands NATO’s 32,000 troops here, warned in an interview with The Associated Press that if life doesn’t get better over the winter, most Afghans could switch sides. > > “They will say, ‘We do not want the Taliban but then we would rather have that austere and unpleasant life that that might involve than another five years of fighting,’” Richards said. This was the “good” war - hell, it still is: those Taliban are nasty fuckers, completely aside from their overfriendliness with al Qaeda. And once they were beaten nearly five years ago, the postwar was supposed to be fairly easy - after all, unlike in Iraq, we were actually _wanted_ here. In fact, the Bushies thought it was going to be so easy, they figured they could do another war at the same time, so they started pulling troops from Afghanistan to Iraq in March 2002, three months after one war and a year before the other. Afghanistan should never have come to this. We had the ability to secure and remake that country. But the Bushies’ heart was never in it; they wanted Iraq even before 9/11, and they never let Osama get between them and their dream. What a titanic fuckup. Everything the Bushies touch really does turn to shit. This makes me realize how much I’ve _enjoyed_ Foleygate lately. The GOP was making a mess of everything, as usual, but at least (unlike Iraq, Afghanistan, and Katrina) nobody died due to the GOP leadership’s coverup of that slimeball Foley. When Afghanistan goes down the tubes (I can’t believe the Bushies are capable of doing whatever might be done to stabilize it in time) I just get angry about all the death, violence, and oppression, and I yearn for that distant land of 2000, when the grownups were still in charge. Even if one of them wore the wrong color of suit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/2 "2006-10-08T20:45:09Z")
For the uninitiated: a “Friedman” is a unit of time of roughly six months’ duration. It’s named (by Duncan Black, a.k.a. “Atrios,” if I remember correctly) after New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, due to his periodic tendency to muse that “the next six months will be critical” in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/3 "2006-10-08T20:59:47Z")
[It’s not entirely Bush’s fault.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5372768.stm) > [@](#): > > In the leaked e-mail, confirmed as genuine by the Ministry of Defence, Maj Loden said there had been “plenty of tears” following casualties in the intense fighting with the Taleban. > > He is based in the north of the southern province of Helmand. > > His e-mail also gave an example of the RAF’s failure to provide air support. > > “… Harrier pilot ‘couldn’t identify the target’, fired two phosphorus rockets that just missed our own compound so that we thought they were incoming RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades], and then strafed our perimeter, missing the enemy by 200 metres,” it said. Maj. Loden’s not the only one saying that, either. > [@](#): > > BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood said Maj Loden’s comments reflected what officers were saying privately, but their tone and emphasis were at odds with the MoD’s official statements. I’ve read that the Canadian military forces are having real morale problems as well. In short, this has been a shocking cock-up of epic proportions, and going to war in Iraq was about as smart as hitting your testicles with a ballpeen hammer. I heard an interview with one senator who’d been working closely with the Clinton Administration when they thought that we might have to invade Iraq. According to him, the _minimum_ number of troops needed to do it successfully was calculated to be 400-500,000, which is way more than we have there now. And Bushie, you’re doing a heck of a job. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/4 "2006-10-08T21:03:59Z")
Jesus these “coinings” are getting out of hand. If you experience any Santorum, make sure to consult your doctor within the next Freidman. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/5 "2006-10-08T21:14:17Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] According to him, the _minimum_ number of troops needed to do it successfully was calculated to be 400-500,000, which is way more than we have there now. [/QUOTE] I had an interesting conversation about this with a good friend of mine yesteday. I’ve known him for nearly 20 years. John is was a military intelligence officer and leaving the obvious oxymoron joke aside, he is one of smartest people I know. He has a PhD in Mechanical Engineering and a JD from Stanford. He has been a rabid Republican for as long as I have known him but he has said from Day 1 of the invasion that our Iraq adventure was a huge mistake on the part of W and that no WMDs would ever be found. We discussed the 400k number vs the 140k or so that we invaded with. He made an interesting point. He said that 140k was plenty of troops to achieve the military objective of taking Iraq. Saddam’s army was easily defeated with the troops that we had. The problem was the incorrect assumption of what would happen afterwards. If indeed we were going to be welcomed as liberators, then that number would have been fine. The blunder was that the men in charge didn’t count on a strong insurgency and had no plan for that to happen. If you realized from the beginning that we would be facing a hostile insurgency, then you would have known that we needed 400k troops to win that kind of war. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/6 "2006-10-08T23:13:08Z")
Damn, there goes my Banana Stand franchise! …Yeah, I know it’s a catastrophe, but if I have to choose laugh or cry, I laugh. If the Dems retake Congress, I am going to write all my representatives and DEMAND an impeachment investigation. Maybe I should do it in any case, but with a Republican congress it would be like spittin into the wind. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/7 "2006-10-08T23:32:36Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] If the Dems retake Congress, I am going to write all my representatives and DEMAND an impeachment investigation. [/QUOTE] Me too. Simulpeachment! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/8 "2006-10-08T23:39:06Z")
Are the Dems going to win 67 seats in the Senate? If not, who would be the 15 or so GOP Senators who would have to be convinced to vote to cut their own throats? It’s a nice dream, but ain’t gonna happen. The 2008 Presidential campaign kicks into the next gear on November 8. Concentrate on that instead. Bush is a lame duck who’s about to get a whole lot lamer for what’s left of his term. In the meanwhile, a Bush administration put under adult supervision, but still in place to serve as a salutary reminder of what happens when you vote for Republicans, is probably in the country’s (and Democratic Party’s) best interests long term. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/9 "2006-10-08T23:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Damn, there goes my Banana Stand franchise! [/QUOTE] Consider the growing opportunity in sales of chocolate covered opium candy. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/10 "2006-10-08T23:51:33Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Are the Dems going to win 67 seats in the Senate? If not, who would be the 15 or so GOP Senators who would have to be convinced to vote to cut their own throats? It’s a nice dream, but ain’t gonna happen. The 2008 Presidential campaign kicks into the next gear on November 8. Concentrate on that instead. Bush is a lame duck who’s about to get a whole lot lamer for what’s left of his term. In the meanwhile, a Bush administration put under adult supervision, but still in place to serve as a salutary reminder of what happens when you vote for Republicans, is probably in the country’s (and Democratic Party’s) best interests long term. [/QUOTE] No, it is possible, but not likely, that impeachment could happen. A Democratic majority could resume some half-way decent form of oversight. Who knows what evidence the Bushistas left lying around in their smug arrogance that they could keep the lid on any investigation through their buds like Tom Delay and Dennis Hastert. There might be smoking guns smelling so bad that Republican senators would have to reject them or risk losing THEIR seats next election. It happened with Nixon, or would have if he hadn’t resigned, and I think the what Nixon did was peanuts compared to Bush the Younger. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/11 "2006-10-09T00:56:14Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] For the uninitiated: a “Friedman” is a unit of time of roughly six months’ duration. It’s named (by Duncan Black, a.k.a. “Atrios,” if I remember correctly) after New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, due to his periodic tendency to muse that “the next six months will be critical” in Iraq. [/QUOTE] Thank goodness! I thought we were going to have to send Kinky over there. He still has work to do in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/12 "2006-10-09T02:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] I’ve read that the Canadian military forces are having real morale problems as well. [/QUOTE] News to me. The Canadian PUBLIC has shifted against the war, but everything I have read about our troops there - and I read a lot of it - says they’re doing a fabulous job and continue to do so. I’ve not heard of any morale problems. This is not to say I don’t think Iraq is a terrible mistake and the allies aren’t doing nearly enough in Afghanistan. Had the USA concentrated on Afghanistan, the world would be a much better place. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/13 "2006-10-09T02:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] News to me. The Canadian PUBLIC has shifted against the war, but everything I have read about our troops there - and I read a lot of it - says they’re doing a fabulous job and continue to do so. I’ve not heard of any morale problems. [/QUOTE] I don’t recall where I read that, but it wasn’t that they were doing a bad job, but that they were frustated with the way things were going. Certainly, Canadian forces have acquitted themselves with honor in Afghanistan, even if they haven’t always gotten the respect that they deserved. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/14 "2006-10-09T02:26:20Z")
Friedman is a fucking moron. He’s the worst goddamned writer I’ve ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on except maybe Richard Simmons. What a fucking joke… and all these white-collar pseudo-intellectuals twat around toting his retarded little rags, smirking about how bright they are to be in the flat-earther club. I really have no stake in this thread, I just look for any opportunity to declare that Friedman is utterly full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/15 "2006-10-09T18:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] I really have no stake in this thread, I just look for any opportunity to declare that Friedman is utterly full of shit. [/QUOTE] And this was an excellent place to do so, IMHO. The whole “next six months will be critical” bit was a total dodge, simply a way of sounding wise and concerned without having to devote much intellectual energy to the topic. After all, there was never a moment at the end of one of those ‘critical’ six-month periods when Friedman would say, “the **last** six months were critical, and boy howdy, did Iraq ever go downhill during that time. That means the Administration had better do something different, because what they’re doing isn’t working.” ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/16 "2006-10-09T18:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] Friedman is a fucking moron. He’s the worst goddamned writer I’ve ever had the misfortune to lay my eyes on except maybe Richard Simmons. What a fucking joke… and all these white-collar pseudo-intellectuals twat around toting his retarded little rags, smirking about how bright they are to be in the flat-earther club. I really have no stake in this thread, I just look for any opportunity to declare that Friedman is utterly full of shit. [/QUOTE] Just chill, baby, and take a ride on the [Moustache of Understanding](http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/moustache_of_understanding.html). ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/17 "2006-10-09T18:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] [It’s not entirely Bush’s fault.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5372768.stm)Maj. Loden’s not the only one saying that, either.I’ve read that the Canadian military forces are having real morale problems as well. [/QUOTE] For a country who has experienced 40 deaths in what was expected to be a Peacekeeping mission, do you blame the Canadian troops for having low morale? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/18 "2006-10-09T23:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Damn, there goes my Banana Stand franchise! [/QUOTE] Will there be anything else, sir? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/19 "2006-10-10T00:42:46Z")
[QUOTE=GingerOfTheNorth] For a country who has experienced 40 deaths in what was expected to be a Peacekeeping mission, do you blame the Canadian troops for having low morale? [/QUOTE] First of all, any Canadian who says this was just supposed to be a peacekeeping mission is either a liar or deluded. Canada went into Afghanistan fully intending to take on a combat role. Jesus, how do people forget this stuff so quickly? I mean, we all remember 9/11, right? We all do recall that a war started in Afghanistan as a result? And that Canada JOINED THE WAR? NATO treaty, anyone? [Canadian snipers setting distance kill records in 2003](http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres.asp) - does that sound like peacekeeping to you? Let’s be honest, for Christ’s sake. We went to war. On purpose. It was not some peacekeeping operation that has mysteriously gone wrong, that those darned Americans somehow tricked us into. The deployment in the south was not suppose to be a “peacekeeping” mission. The public was not told it was a peacekeeping mission. The soldiers were not told it was a peacekeeping mission. So where’s this bullshit that it was supposed to be a peacekeeping mission? When we first went in in 2002, it was not a “peacekeeping” mission then, either. Have we gotten so wrapped up in our “peacekeeping” mythology that we can’t accept that armies are for killing folks and that that is what we are doing in Afghanistan? Secondly, where is the evidence Canadian troops are suffering morale problems? Armies do not instantly lose heart the moment they take some casualties. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741/20 "2006-10-10T06:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Jesus, how do people forget this stuff so quickly? I mean, we all remember 9/11, right? We all do recall that a war started in Afghanistan as a result? And that Canada JOINED THE WAR? NATO treaty, anyone? [Canadian snipers setting distance kill records in 2003](http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres.asp) - does that sound like peacekeeping to you? [/QUOTE] That record was invalidated after it was discovered that the sniper was on stanozolol. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nato-commander-were-one-friedman-away-from-losing-afghanistan/375741.md?page=2)