# Natural born citizenship question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587 "2011-02-16T15:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/1 "2011-02-16T15:21:48Z")
Let’s assume there’s a kid named John. He was born in California to American parents and is a American citizen by birth. When he’s ten years old, his parents move to Brazil. They, and young John, become Brazilian citizens and lose their American citizenship. Fifteen years later, John decides to immigrate to the United States. He comes here as a Brazilian citizen. He likes it here and eventually decides to apply for American citizenship. He passes through whatever procedures exist and becomes an American citizen once again (and loses his Brazilian citizenship). Is John considered to be a natural born citizen? He was an American citizen at birth and he is one now. But does the gap in his citizenship negate the natural born status? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/2 "2011-02-16T15:25:06Z")
Since the issue has never come before a court in the U.S. (it really only affects eligibility to be elected as president), we can only speculate. One issue that might be important is whether it was John’s decision to renounce citizenship, or it was a decision effectively imposed on him by others. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/3 "2011-02-16T15:29:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … and lose their American citizenship. How? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/4 "2011-02-16T15:36:09Z")
You don’t lose your American citizenship by becoming a citizen of another country, unless you specifically renounce it. (Which requires going through a bureaucratic procedure at the embassy.) Lots of people have dual (or more) citizenships. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/5 "2011-02-16T15:45:06Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > You don’t lose your American citizenship by becoming a citizen of another country, unless you specifically renounce it. That depends on the country. China and Japan, for example, do not allow dual citizenship. I’m not sure about Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/6 "2011-02-16T15:51:39Z")
The more basic question is whether you can be an American citizen, lose it somehow, and then get it back. I am not sure you can. Renouncing your U.S. citizenship is taken very seriously and irreversible as far as I have read. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/7 "2011-02-16T15:55:43Z")
My mother was born in Brazil in 1937, moved to the US in 1965, and now has dual citizenship. I was born in the US in 1970 so am obviously a US citizen, and from what I understand I could have also had Brazilian citizenship if she had filed the appropriate paperwork with the Brazilian embassy/gov’t when I was a baby. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/8 "2011-02-16T16:07:29Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > That depends on the country. China and Japan, for example, do not allow dual citizenship. I’m not sure about Brazil. Although Japan does not acknowledge dual citizenship, I don’t believe it can or does force people who become naturalized Japanese to denounce their foreign nationality. Children who have parents where one is Japanese and the other is non-Japanese can have dual citizenship until 20 and then they are supposed to choose one, but people I’ve talked to say that no one comes knocking on their door asking which one they’ve selected. I have heard about a Japanese who moved to America, became a US citizenship and gave up her Japanese citizenship in the process. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/9 "2011-02-16T16:07:23Z")
I’m no expert, but it seems if John is a naturalized citizen (i.e. became a citizen through the process of naturalization), then by definition, he’s not a natural-born citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/10 "2011-02-16T16:22:12Z")
Now if John’s family had moved to Kenya, it’d be a whole different kettle of laundry. ---
**Author:** ![mckall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mckall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mckall)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/11 "2011-02-16T16:26:09Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Although Japan does not acknowledge dual citizenship, I don’t believe it can or does force people who become naturalized Japanese to denounce their foreign nationality. I certainly take your word for it and doubt it would be a major issue with the Japanese government, but I found [this.](http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/information/tnl-01.html) Article 15 references the part you mentioned and Article 16 states what the Japanese government \can\ do; but as you said, most likely does not do. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/12 "2011-02-16T16:30:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They, and young John, become Brazilian citizens and lose their American citizenship. Unless you take specific and serious steps to renounce your US citizenship, I believe the US still considers you a US citizen, regardless of how other countries view you. So, in your scenario, unless they did that, John never lost his US citizenship. And I’m not sure if it’s possible for a minor to even renounce US citizenship. Are there any examples of that happening? ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/13 "2011-02-16T16:42:05Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Although Japan does not acknowledge dual citizenship, I don’t believe it can or does force people who become naturalized Japanese to denounce their foreign nationality. That would be a bit extreme. At most, you’d think they’d make people renounce their foreign nationality. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/14 "2011-02-16T16:43:21Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > You don’t lose your American citizenship by becoming a citizen of another country, unless you specifically renounce it. (Which requires going through a bureaucratic procedure at the embassy.) renouncing American citizenship is intentionally made a very difficult procedure, largely to ensure that you aren’t doing so just to dodge American taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/15 "2011-02-16T16:43:47Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Unless you take specific and serious steps to renounce your US citizenship, I believe the US still considers you a US citizen, regardless of how other countries view you. So, in your scenario, unless they did that, John never lost his US citizenship. > > And I’m not sure if it’s possible for a minor to even renounce US citizenship. Are there any examples of that happening? This used to come up a lot with Indian clients in the U.S. on work visas who wanted to renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their U.S.-born children, because India doesn’t alllow dual citizenship. (Otherwise, the parents would have to get Indian visitor visas every time they wanted to visit the family in India, which was a pain.) I don’t have a cite handy, but the advice the attorneys I worked with generally gave them was that the U.S. does not acknowledge citizenship renounced on behalf of a minor. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![mckall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mckall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mckall)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/16 "2011-02-16T16:55:21Z")
In case anyone is interested in doing so, and because I’m really bored this morning, [here](http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html) is some info on renouncing U.S. citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/17 "2011-02-16T16:59:14Z")
IANAL, etc. Assuming that John had indeed lost his original citizenship through his own volition, and that US law has no mechanism for subsequently reinstating it, then surely his adult status as US citizen is entirely because he was naturalized. Ergo, as an adult he would not be a natural-born citizen. ETA: Drat, scr4’s post wasn’t there when I wrote this! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/18 "2011-02-16T17:12:41Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > That depends on the country. China and Japan, for example, do not allow dual citizenship. I’m not sure about Brazil. My wife is a naturalized U.S. citizen and is still considered a citizen of Brazil. Still has to maintain two passports, and is obligated to vote in Brazilian elections (voting being compulsory in Brazil, under penalty of fine). Not sure what the actual amount is, or whether she’s only required to vote in national elections. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/19 "2011-02-16T17:59:39Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > My wife is a naturalized U.S. citizen and is still considered a citizen of Brazil. Still has to maintain two passports, and is obligated to vote in Brazilian elections (voting being compulsory in Brazil, under penalty of fine). Not sure what the actual amount is, or whether she’s only required to vote in national elections. Sorry, after speaking to my wife I need to issue a correction on this. She does still need to maintain a current Brazilian passport, but is no longer required to vote in Brazilian elections since being naturalized in the U.S. When renewing her Brazilian passport, she is required to provide proof that she’s now a permanent U.S. resident in order to avoid paying the fine for not voting there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587/20 "2011-02-16T18:08:25Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m no expert, but it seems if John is a naturalized citizen (i.e. became a citizen through the process of naturalization), then by definition, he’s not a natural-born citizen. There’s no legal definition of “natural born citizen”. **Giles** is correct, whatever is posted here is pure speculation. It’s true that under some US Code John may have lost his US Citizenship, only to regain it, but that US Code section does not speak of “natural born citizen”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/natural-born-citizenship-question/571587.md?page=2)