# "Nature of God" query inspired by closed thread, but completely different question **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 28, 2025, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518 "2025-01-28T10:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/41 "2025-01-28T21:47:46Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The phrase “But God immediately…” clearly implies that the sentence is directly connected to the one before it, but neither “But” nor “immediately” are actually in the Bible! It just says “God said to Moses…”, which is a standard formula in the Torah often used to signify a change of subject. Moreover, there’s a paragraph break between verses 11 and 12. So it’s certainly possible to credibly argue that verses 12ff have nothing to do with the rock scene, and Moses and Aaron were actually being punished for something completely different. Love this. It’s like right out of the Haggadah, when they keep multiplying the number of plagues for some reason. No one does fan fiction like those old rabbis! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/42 "2025-01-29T02:39:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As for hell, remember there are the concepts that Jews have their own heaven, and that there is a nice spot for “virtuous pagans” and in some churches- if you truly repent, you get out of hell. The ghetto in heaven. Who knew? You’d think god would be a bit clearer about this stuff. However, the real problem is the idea of infinite punishment for a finite crime. That’s a Christian invention. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/43 "2025-01-29T02:57:00Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yeah, there are some harsh things that happen through the bible stories under the auspices of HaShem, but good things happen as well, and something he _never_ does is send his own child to be painfully, publicly executed. Ha, I never thought about that, but that’s a good point. The story of Isaac and Abraham almost lampshades this. God _tests_ Abraham and then at the last second says, “No, wait, don’t kill your kid! That’s be freaking _insane!_ Could you imagine someone doing that?!?! Man oh man, that was crazy!”. Then in the sequel he does it Himself? Sus. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/44 "2025-01-29T03:00:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But he orders Abraham to kill his own son. Which Abe ends up doing. I’ve been horrified by that story ever since I was taught it at age 5. Apparently you were so horrified that you stopped listening before the part where Abraham most certainly does not kill Isaac. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/45 "2025-01-29T03:09:57Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Love this. It’s like right out of the Haggadah, when they keep multiplying the number of plagues for some reason. No one does fan fiction like those old rabbis! But did you consider that a hand has fourteen knuckles, therefore each plague was fourteen plagues times fifty? (They’re interpreting the repeated expression “with a strong hand and an outstretched arm” as being mathematically significant to how devastating each plague was, essentially). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/46 "2025-01-29T03:30:42Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It seems like there’s a category error where people think they can judge the Biblical God’s morality in the same way they would judge a human’s, but that makes no logical sense. How can you get mad at God for flooding the world…after He created it in the first place?! It’s like dropping a brick on your foot and complaining that the law of gravity isn’t merciful. I think it is entirely possible to judge morality based on what a being (human or devine) does with their own creation. Susan Smith “created” her children and we judge the hell out if her for drowning them. Why shouldn’t the same rules apply to a god? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/47 "2025-01-29T03:35:24Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > **What I’d like to know** is how the Jewish bible, or so-called “old testament” is taught to Christian children that they are left with the impression that the god there is someone it’s good to be over and done with. And what do they think, or are taught, happened in the inter-testamental times to change the nature of God? One of the truest things I’ve ever heard about religion was, of all places, in the lyrics of “The Loophole” by Garfunkel and Oates. _So whatever people tell me_ _That The Bible tells me_ _I will do_ The point is that most Christians aren’t getting their religious beliefs directly from the Bible. They’re getting their beliefs from some authority figure who is claiming they are passing on what the Bible meant to say. The Bible itself follows this same principle. Even if you assume God exists, he didn’t personally sit down and write the Bible. It was written down by people who were claiming they were passing on what God meant to say. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/48 "2025-01-29T03:35:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But he orders Abraham to kill his own son. Which Abe ends up doing. I’ve been horrified by that story ever since I was taught it at age 5. While Abraham doesn’t sacrifice his son, Jephthah does sacrifice his daughter > **[Jephthah's daughter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah's_daughter)** > > Jephthah's daughter, sometimes later referred to as Seila or as Iphis, is a figure in the Hebrew Bible, whose story is recounted in Judges 11. The judge Jephthah had just won a battle over the Ammonites, and vowed he would give the first thing that came out of his house as a burnt offering to God. However, his only child, an unnamed daughter, came out to meet him dancing and playing a tambourine (v. 34). She encourages Jephthah to fulfill his vow (v. 36) but asks for two months to weep for her vi... [https://thebrickbible.com/legacy/judges/jephthah\_kills\_his\_virgin\_daughter/jg11\_34.html](https://thebrickbible.com/legacy/judges/jephthah_kills_his_virgin_daughter/jg11_34.html) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/49 "2025-01-29T03:45:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But he orders Abraham to kill his own son. Which Abe ends up doing. I’ve been horrified by that story ever since I was taught it at age 5. Here’s my interpretation of that story. It was a test by God of Abraham - and Abraham failed the test. God had laid down a set of moral laws and told Abraham to obey them. And then God commanded Abraham to do something that was clearly immoral. And Abraham was willing to do it. What God had wanted was for Abraham to refuse. God wanted Abraham to say _“No, you have told me to be moral. So I won’t commit what I know is an immoral act. Even if I am ordered to do so. Even if God himself is the one who orders me to do so. Acting morally is more important than obeying orders.”_ But the later authors of Genesis couldn’t see this. They were, after all, the kind of religious authority figures that God had been worried about. They recast Abraham’s willingness to obey an authority figure as the right decision. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/50 "2025-01-29T03:46:56Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > > It seems like there’s a category error where people think they can judge the Biblical God’s morality in the same way they would judge a human’s, but that makes no logical sense. How can you get mad at God for flooding the world…after He created it in the first place?! It’s like dropping a brick on your foot and complaining that the law of gravity isn’t merciful. > > I think it is entirely possible to judge morality based on what a being (human or devine) does with their own creation. Susan Smith “created” her children and we judge the hell out if her for drowning them. Why shouldn’t the same rules apply to a god? I keep hearing the claim that God wrote His morality on everyone’s conscience, therefore we judge God by God’s morality. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/51 "2025-01-29T11:16:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Here’s my interpretation of that story. It was a test by God of Abraham - and Abraham failed the test. My interpretation is that is was a test of Isaac, not Abraham. Would Isaac continue to trust and have a relationship with his father after this episode? He obviously does, because he allows Abraham to find a wife for him. Sometimes HaShem asks things of us that we do not understand, an that even seem to contradict other things. We trust that things will work out, and continue to be the people of HaShem. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/52 "2025-01-29T11:51:58Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Jephthah's daughter - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah's_daughter) I choose to believe that not every story in the bible is factually true, and there is no problem with Jewish tradition in thinking this-- Job, for example, has been regarded as fiction since it was written, even if some Orthodox groups chose to consider it true now, because they insist all of scripture is a factual record. Which is backlash to the emergence of liberal Judaism, and the idea that the _Torah_ may not be factual history. Anyway, this story is something I consider not factually true. It’s a weird story that honestly looks like it could have been interpolated by someone wanting to make Israel look bad-- “Haha! your leader is the son of a harlot who was dumb enough to sacrifice his daughter!” And the sacrifice, BTW, is like a lot of cautionary fables that exist in most cultures and are about being careful what you wish for, and how you phrase things. You know, you have three wishes, and with the first one, you don’t think things through, or phrase it in slightly the wrong way, and then spend the next two wishes getting rid of the first wish, and putting everything you did with it right again. The story is implausible in a lot of ways that don’t seem obvious to us, like the daughter knowing everything that has happened before her father has a chance to tell her about it. I’ve got more, but I have to get ready for work. My 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2025, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/53 "2025-01-29T23:30:31Z")
As noted by other people, as a kid I only learned about the shiny, happy parts of the Old Testament/Tanakh. The violent stuff like homicidal she-bears and slavery of virgin girls I only learned about later as a teenager (e.g. reading the Bible by myself or reading Larry Gonick’s “Cartoon History of the Universe”). > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Yeah, the multiple genocides up to and including everyone (and, almost, every living thing) but eight people on Earth and there’s always the ‘here are the rules for slavery’ parts. One of the more bizarre episodes (to me) is the slaughter of the Midianites in Numbers 31, where Jehovah punishes the Israelites with a plague because they weren’t genocidal enough! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/54 "2025-01-30T02:21:58Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > He banned Moses from the promised land for some transgression. Moses seemed to get to the promised land during the transfiguration. So it was only a temporary ban. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Jesus did kill anyone, as far as I know. In Rev 2:23 Jesus promises to kill the children of Jezebel ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/55 "2025-01-30T02:35:09Z")
Kill them with death! Also Rev 2:23 does not actually quote Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/56 "2025-01-30T02:51:26Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Also Rev 2:23 does not actually quote Jesus. Rev 2:18x These are the words of the Son of God, and 2:27x. just as I have received authority from my Father. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/57 "2025-01-30T02:55:40Z")
They’re the words of John of Patmos, they claim to be the words of… someone else, I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/58 "2025-01-30T02:59:11Z")
That can be said of the gospels also, Matt, Mark, Luke and John quoting what Jesus said. So can you define a difference? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/59 "2025-01-30T03:01:32Z")
There is no difference. It’s all third person, at best. And some of it is clearly not possible for the writer to recount given the specifics in the text. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/60 "2025-01-30T03:13:08Z")
And they were all written long after anyone who actually knew Jesus was dead, so… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518.md?page=4)