# "Nature of God" query inspired by closed thread, but completely different question **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 28, 2025, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518 "2025-01-28T10:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/61 "2025-01-30T03:22:43Z")
And omniscient narrators writing about events that they slept through or could not know unless they were told by the women that they claim never recounted their experiences to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/62 "2025-01-30T03:25:32Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And they were all written long after anyone who actually knew Jesus was dead, so… How do you figure that? The four gospels were all likely written in the first century. > **[Who wrote the Bible? (Part 4)](https://www.straightdope.com/21343131/who-wrote-the-bible-part-4)** > > A STAFF REPORT FROM THE STRAIGHT DOPE SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/63 "2025-01-30T03:46:00Z")
Per your link, at least 2 and possibly 3 might have been written only about 35 years after Jesus’ death, so I’ll concede that’s possible, if somewhat unlikely given life expectancy in those days. The other 1 or 2 were written at least 68 years after, which strains credulity. Please pardon my exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/64 "2025-01-30T03:52:08Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > given life expectancy in those days. Off Topic: I hope you’re not making the mistake I constantly see made, that average life expectancy tells you what age most adults die at on average. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/65 "2025-01-31T11:25:00Z")
Another major difference between New Testament and Old Testament is the move to universalism. The Old Testament God is very much the God of the Jews. They are His People, He gives them Commandments and rewards and punishes them accordingly. There are other Peoples, often deprecated for e.g. worshipping false idols but this is only really a big problem when they try to encroach on the Chosen People. There is no particular sense that God wants to expand the definition of the Chosen People, or send preachers out to convert them. But in the New Testament, Jesus is clear that God is the God of everyone. Leviticus says “love thy neighbour” - when challenged on this by a lawyer, Jesus clarifies is the most maximal way possible: everyone is your neighbour. You owe charity and love to literally every person in the world and they in turn are welcome to follow Jesus/God and enter Heaven - even Samaritans, even Romans. And post Gospels, the New Testament is essentially the story of various apostles and preachers spreading the Good News far and wide. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/66 "2025-01-31T11:55:34Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It seems like there’s a category error where people think they can judge the Biblical God’s morality in the same way they would judge a human’s, but that makes no logical sense. How else do you judge God’s morality? There are only two possibilities, as far as I can tell: 1. You define God as Good, in which case the word “good” becomes almost completely meaningless–and if there’s to be anything like morality in the universe, you’ll need a new word to replace what “good” would otherwise mean. 2. You evaluate God’s actions as best you can using your understanding of good and evil–in which case the God of many, many people is little better than Nyarolathotep the Crawling Chaos. There’s certainly the idea that God Has a Plan, and that we should Trust In The Plan. But that only works if you look at the results of the Plan so far and see some brilliance in it. Me, I look at everything from rapey ducks to hydroencephalic babies to human inclination to schadenfreude to the Holocaust, and I’m not impressed. Specifically to the thread topic: I come to these conclusions after a childhood of Christianity. At the age of 13, I was confirmed into the Presbyterian church, in a really liberal congregation. Prior to that, I attended Sunday school at a much more conservative church, where we were taught to fear God. I read the old testament at a young age, and was both bored and terrified. The idea that Jesus’s sacrifice is crueller than, say, Job’s devastation falls flat to me. The story of Jesus is one of God sacrificing himself, directly for humans, in a way that’s diametrically opposite to something like the story of Lot, where a human gives up his daughter to be gang-raped in order to preserve the dignity of a couple of God’s employees. But the idea that Hell is crueler than anything in the Old Testament holds water; I will only say that as a child, I learned about Hell, and I learned about Jesus, but I never learned about Jesus preaching about Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/67 "2025-01-31T12:30:10Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yeah, there are some harsh things that happen through the bible stories under the auspices of HaShem… … and you are done. If you just cease to turn a blind eye to what you already know you wouldn’t need the rest of your post. You have supplied the answer to your own question. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/68 "2025-01-31T12:46:24Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > But in the New Testament, Jesus is clear that God is the God of everyone. Leviticus says “love thy neighbour” Matthew says, The Faith of the Canaanite Woman (Matthew 15: 21–24) Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.” But Jesus did not answer a word. So His disciples came and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/69 "2025-01-31T12:53:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How else do you judge God’s morality? > > There are only two possibilities, as far as I can tell: > > 1. You define God as Good, in which case the word “good” becomes almost completely meaningless–and if there’s to be anything like morality in the universe, you’ll need a new word to replace what “good” would otherwise mean. > 2. You evaluate God’s actions as best you can using your understanding of good and evil which according to the Bible God himself has written on my heart. _Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again._ ~ Jesus (Matthew 7 - KJV) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/70 "2025-01-31T15:07:29Z")
I mean yes, but also that is literally half the story why didn’t you quote the rest of the conversation and also also Christianity very evidently is a universalist religion and this is very evidently based on what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospels and also also also this universalism is very clearly at odds with the notion of God’s Chosen People so evident in the Old Testament so if your point is that the message of the New Testament is that Jesus’ Word is only for the Jews then I am afraid I am not persuaded. _Edited to get the right Testament_ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/71 "2025-01-31T15:20:31Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > why didn’t you quote the rest of the conversation Because in the rest of the story Jesus doesn’t say that what He had just said was wrong, _The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said._ _He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”_ _“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”_ _Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment._ One could eisegete Universalism from that but I don’t see how anyone can exegete it. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/72 "2025-01-31T15:26:41Z")
Before I go down the rabbit hole of close textual reading, I just want to clarify: are you saying that the New Testament says that Jesus’ message was only for the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/73 "2025-01-31T15:28:25Z")
The New Testament? The Gospels or Paul? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/74 "2025-01-31T15:30:27Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > which according to the Bible God himself has written on my heart. > > _Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again._ > ~ Jesus (Matthew 7 - KJV) I’m not getting your paraphrase from that passage. I understand it as, “Don’t be all condemny of other people for their faults, because you want them to cut you some slack too. If you’re super judgy of others, they’re gonna be super judgy of you, and straight up you ain’t so great by your own standards.” How does that relate to having moral standards, and for how we figure out if God is Princess Twilight or Nyarolathotep? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/75 "2025-01-31T15:33:57Z")
The New Testament. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/76 "2025-01-31T15:41:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not getting your paraphrase from that passage. The passage isn’t in support of the first sentence. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I understand it as, “Don’t be all condemny of other people for their faults, because you want them to cut you some slack too. If you’re super judgy of others, they’re gonna be super judgy of you, and straight up you ain’t so great by your own standards.” Yup, now just add God after the “you”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/77 "2025-01-31T15:42:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not getting your paraphrase from that passage. I understand it as, “Don’t be all condemny of other people for their faults, because you want them to cut you some slack too. If you’re super judgy of others, they’re gonna be super judgy of you, and straight up you ain’t so great by your own standards.” IIRC, Ayn Rand’s take on that quote was, _no, that doesn’t mean Judge Not; it means: Judge! And Prepare To BE Judged!_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/78 "2025-01-31T15:46:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Yup, now just add God after the “you”. Huh? > Don’t be all condemny of other people for their faults, because you God want them to cut you God some slack too. If you’re super judgy of others, they’re gonna be super judgy of you God, and straight up you God ain’t so great by your own standards. I’m not trying to be dumb–is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/79 "2025-01-31T15:48:58Z")
Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/80 "2025-01-31T15:49:36Z")
I really don’t get what you’re going for here, or how it relates to the question of whether God is good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518.md?page=5)