# "Nature of God" query inspired by closed thread, but completely different question **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 28, 2025, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518 "2025-01-28T10:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/81 "2025-01-31T15:50:43Z")
That by God’s own standard, which many Christians claim is written on our hearts so it’s God’s standard and not just ours, God is not “good”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/82 "2025-01-31T17:12:17Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > **What I’d like to know** is how the Jewish bible, or so-called “old testament” is taught to Christian children that they are left with the impression that the god there is someone it’s good to be over and done with. And what do they think, or are taught, happened in the inter-testamental times to change the nature of God? In my United Methodist Church, teaching is almost entirely around the New Testament. The Old Testament is mostly taught as context for the actions and words of the Christ. The Bible itself is a collection of how previous people interacted with God, and we learn how different people did so differently. Note that for the UMC, the Bible is only one part of the foundations of faith. ([See the Wesleyan Quadrilateral.](https://www.umc.org/en/content/glossary-wesleyan-quadrilateral-the)) For us, Jesus is the Word of God, and God is Love. So answers about what does a verse mean are typically considered with respect to how it helps us better love our neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/83 "2025-01-31T20:20:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > In Rev 2:23 Jesus promises to kill the children of Jezebel Well, who knows- here is how that chapter starts- “_To the angel[[a](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30720a)] of the church in Ephesus write:_ _These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands._ Revelations wasnt written by any of the Apostles, and it isnt a Gospel. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > They’re the words of John of Patmos, they claim to be the words of… someone else, Right. Apparently he got hold of some great “stuff”. > [@kanicbird](#): > > That can be said of the gospels also, Matt, Mark, Luke and John quoting what Jesus said. It was excluded for the Gospels for several reasons. John of the Gospels was one of the 12 Apostles. The others at least met one of the Apostles. The other three seem to have been guided by the Q document, where someone wrote down many saying of jesus while he was still alive. Revelations seems to have been written by someone under some odd hallucinatory trip. And is much later than the three Q gospels. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And they were all written long after anyone who actually knew Jesus was dead, so… Okay, The 4 Gospels- John was written while the Apostle John was alive- he lived to like 90, and war put to pen by John’s apostles- likely dicated in part by him. So, John not only met Jesus, but traveled with him. And how much John provided to his Gospel is unknown, but he lived to about 100 AD or so. Mark- AD 70 or so. Maybe written by Mark the Evangelist. Matthew- Likely written by a unknown Jewish convert, based upon Mark and Q, maybe around AD 70? Luke- unknown date- 58- 100AD. Maybe Luke the Evangelist. Saint Peter lived to about AD 68 or so. James, the Brother of Jesus died in AD 62, and his death is well documented. Earliest NT book is likely Epistle to the Galatians, written by St Paul 48 AD. Most of the NT books were written long before those who knew Jesus were dead- > **[Dating the Bible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible)** > > The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls, date to c. the 2nd century BCE. Some of these scrolls are presently stored at the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem. The oldest text of the entire Christian Bible, including the New Testament, is the Codex Sinaiticus dating from the 4th century CE, with its Old Testament a copy of a Greek translation known as the Septuagint. The oldest extant manuscripts of the vocalized Masoretic Text date to the 9th century CE. With the excep In... > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Per your link, at least 2 and possibly 3 might have been written only about 35 years after Jesus’ death, so I’ll concede that’s possible, if somewhat unlikely given life expectancy in those days. We are sure John the Apostle lived to at least AD90. James, the Brother of Jesus died in AD 62, this is documented. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/84 "2025-01-31T20:23:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Earliest NT book is likely Epistle to the Galatians, written by St Paul 48 AD. > > Most of the NT books were written long before those who knew Jesus were dead- Paul, who, AFAWK, never knew Jesus in the way “knew” is commonly used. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/85 "2025-01-31T20:41:57Z")
How about the way it’s used in the Bible? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/86 "2025-01-31T20:43:26Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Paul, who, AFAWK, never knew Jesus in the way “knew” is commonly used. Yes, but if his book was written in AD 48, and John the Apostle lived to at least AD90. James, the Brother of Jesus died in AD 62, this is documented. So, sure, Paul never met Jesus, but he did MEET Peter and James. Saint Peter lived to about AD 68 or so. So Paul certainly met lots of people who met and traveled with Jesus. > [@RitterSport](#): > > How about the way it’s used in the Bible? Paul saw Jesus in a vision. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/87 "2025-01-31T20:50:49Z")
I am not seeing much influence from Peter and James in Paul’s depiction of his vision of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/88 "2025-01-31T21:40:26Z")
“I knew Jesus. I spread the gospel with Jesus. You sir, are no Jesus Christ.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/89 "2025-01-31T21:42:43Z")
"Correct sir! I fully understand Christianity… unlike Jesus!’ ~ Paul ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/90 "2025-01-31T22:40:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am not seeing much influence from Peter and James in Paul’s depiction of his vision of Jesus. Paul had his vision before he knew them. But again- while i believe people have visions- it is a part of the Native American religions- that doesnt mean I believe necessarily what Paul said. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/91 "2025-02-01T00:50:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We are sure John the Apostle lived to at least AD90. James, the Brother of Jesus died in AD 62, this is documented. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/92 "2025-02-01T01:17:34Z")
I doubt many Bible scholars outside the evangelical world would agree, and probably some inside it don’t. Just because someone’s name was attached to a book of the Bible doesn’t mean that person wrote it. And I say that as a Christian, albeit a more liberal one. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/93 "2025-02-01T03:51:49Z")
But he doesn’t. It’s always been my understanding that Abraham was stopped. The entire concept is that God does not want human sacrifice, but a sacrifice of our will. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/94 "2025-02-01T21:32:19Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Cite? > **[James, brother of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus)** > > James the Just, or a variation of James, brother of the Lord (Latin: Iacobus from Hebrew: יעקב, Ya'aqov and Ancient Greek: Ἰάκωβος, Iákōbos, can also be Anglicized as "Jacob"), was, according to the New Testament, a brother of Jesus. He was the first leader of the Jerusalem Church of the Apostolic Age. Traditionally, it is believed he was martyred either in AD 62 by being stoned to death on the order of High Priest Ananus ben Ananus, or in AD 69 by being thrown off the pinnacle of the Temple by s... > **[John the Apostle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle)** > > John the Apostle (Ancient Greek: Ἰωάννης; Latin: Ioannes; c. 6 AD – c. 100 AD), also known as Saint John the Beloved and, in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, Saint John the Theologian, was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus according to the New Testament. Generally listed as the youngest apostle, he was the son of Zebedee and Salome. His brother James was another of the Twelve Apostles. The Church Fathers identify him as John the Evangelist, John of Patmos, John the Elder, and the Belo John the ... > [@P-man](#): > > Just because someone’s name was attached to a book of the Bible doesn’t mean that person wrote it That is correct. Matthew almost certainly didnt write that Gospel. Mark m& could have written those Gospel, but there are arguments, so by no means is that a fact The Gospel of John was put to pen by John the Apostles followers. How much input John gave is debated. However, the main argument of why John could not have written “there are multiple reasons for this conclusion, including, for example, the fact that the gospel is written in good Greek and displays sophisticated theology, and is therefore unlikely to have been the work of a simple fisherman” is totally bogus for at least two reasons-Yes, John was maybe semi-literate, sure when Jesus died. But he was a fairly young man, and thinking John could not have learned to write with some skill in 4-5 decades is ridiculous . Next- almost no one put their pen to parchment themselves- they had a secretary to do so. They just dictated it. Even Julius Caesar one of the most literate men of his time used a secretary when writing _Commentarii de Bello Gallico_. So if you want to think Johns followers wrote it without his input- fine. [Gospel of John - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John)" ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/95 "2025-02-01T21:41:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > James, the Brother of Jesus died in AD 62, this is documented. > Traditionally, it is believed he was martyred either in AD 62 by being stoned to death on the order of High Priest Ananus ben Ananus, or in AD 69 by being thrown off the pinnacle of the Temple by scribes and Pharisees and then clubbed to death. > According to a [passage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Reference_to_Jesus_as_brother_of_James_(20.9.1)) found in [Josephus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus)’ _[Antiquities of the Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Antiquities)_ (20.9.1), “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James” met his death after the death of the procurator [Porcius Festus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcius_Festus) but before [Lucceius Albinus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucceius_Albinus) had assumed office – which has been dated to 62. Lucceius Albinus’ assumption of office has been dated to 62, NOT JAMES’ DEATH. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/96 "2025-02-01T21:47:15Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Lucceius Albinus’ assumption of office has been dated to 62, NOT JAMES’ DEATH. Neither of your cites disprove the AD 62 date. Say Lucceius Albinus assumed office in later AD62, then it works. Anway Josephus is a solid cite, even if the dating cant always be calculated exactly. and if you look further in wiki- _The context of the passage is the period following the death of [Porcius Festus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcius_Festus), and the journey to [Alexandria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria) by [Lucceius Albinus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucceius_Albinus), the new [Roman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) [Procurator of Judea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_(Roman_province)#List_of_Governors_(CE_6%E2%80%93135)), who held that position from 62 CE to 64 CE. [[32]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPainter2005134%E2%80%93141-37) Because Albinus’ journey to Alexandria had to have concluded no later than the summer of 62 CE, the date of James’ death can be assigned with some certainty to around that year.[[32]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPainter2005134%E2%80%93141-37)[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMitchellYoung2006297-41)[[31]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHarding2003317-36) The 2nd century chronicler [Hegesippus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegesippus_(chronicler)) also left an account of the death of James, and while the details he provides diverge from those of Josephus, the two accounts share similar elements.[[37]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPainter2004126-42)[[38]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBauckham1999199%E2%80%93203-43)[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMitchellYoung2006297-41)_ **“no later than the summer of 62 CE, the date of James’ death can be assigned with some certainty to around that year.”** ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/97 "2025-02-01T21:51:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Neither of your cites disprove the AD 62 date. No, that wasn’t the point. Your cite doesn’t say “this is documented” and Josephus is a solid cite for what other people were telling Josephus not for what Josephus knew first-hand. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2025, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/98 "2025-02-01T22:01:05Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Your cite doesn’t say “this is documented” and Josephus is a solid cite for what other people were telling Josephus not for what Josephus knew first-hand. This nitpick is ridiculous. It is _documented,_ by two sources. I didnt claim “first hand sources”. There really arent many in the ancient past. There are even modern history book accepted as great and dependable works, there are not first hand- in fact almost no history books are first hand. **The Twelve Caesars** : Suetonius was not writing first hand. However, it is accepted as a reliable source. _History of Rome_ by Livy was not first hand. I could go on. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/99 "2025-02-02T11:40:38Z")
Josephus’ history is highly interpolated, particularly by one Christian hand who made Josephus appear to be much more concerned with Jesus, the apostles, and the early church, than he was (we know a lot about him). There are three major writers of the book of John-- I have this from several books written about the gospels, including one I had as a college textbook. IIRC, the original John was written about 90CE, and the final version about 120CE, and we know this because even though there are no extant documents from these dates, there are writings which quoted John, some of which date to close to 90CE, and others which were written after 120CE. Also, of course, because errors of grammar and quirks of language signify that one author or another is “speaking.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2025, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518/100 "2025-02-02T21:20:39Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Josephus’ history is highly interpolated, particularly by one Christian hand who made Josephus appear to be much more concerned with Jesus, the apostles, and the early church, than he was (we know a lot about him). One book was. But by no means all. Actually those two mentions of Jesus is maybe why Josephus’ history survived. Here is some interesting info- > **[Josephus: The man who “invented” Jewish history](https://jewishunpacked.com/jewish-history-unpacked-josephus-flavius/)** > > Editor's note: Whoever said history was boring clearly never heard these stories…Welcome to Jewish History Unpacked! Join hosts Yael and Schwab each week _Yael: Yes. So, while historians agree that most of what we get from Josephus is true, now using modern archeology and other sources that have been found since then, we really are taking every story about Josephus from the mouth of Josephus. So, just something to keep in mind as I continue to tell you what an amazing military strategist he was._ _Schwab: Well, if you are the one whose book survived, then you’re probably going to be painted in a pretty good light._ _Yael: That is a very good point. And actually, a lot of people say that the reason why Josephus’s writings survived was because they were the most useful and they had the most utility. So, presumably, other people who were there found them useful and then passed them along to subsequent generations._ But to be honest- everything written by the ancients-Josephus, the Gospels,Suetonius, Caesar, etc- all has to be taken with a grain of salt. But in many cases- it is really all we have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nature-of-god-query-inspired-by-closed-thread-but-completely-different-question/1013518.md?page=4)