# Nava, I can't let this go **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783 "2007-09-11T13:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/321 "2007-09-12T05:07:54Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] Who doesn’t have their own interests at heart? Jesus! [/QUOTE] Preach it, brother! 😃 . ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/322 "2007-09-12T05:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Martin Hyde > No, not at all. My first statement conveyed my thoughts on Spain, that being that Spain is an embarrassment, that it is poor, and that it is led by spineless men. > > Spain is one of the poorer countries in Western Europe, a region of the world with mostly high per capita income states. Spain is led by a man who is almost overfilled with pride in his own cowardice. I don’t know if you’ve kept with the news from that area, but I am sorry to inform you that Franco died. Wow! That is so wrong on so many levels that it’s almost funny. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/323 "2007-09-12T05:26:39Z")
Doh, I’m late to Nava’s first (?) pitting. _waves to her_ Personally, I don’t see much particularly wrong with her post. People see a crashed car with blood spilling out of it and all turn to stare in fascination hoping to see the really cringe-worthy bits. She’s not admitting to doing anything different than pretty much everyone does when they’re in the car driving by. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/324 "2007-09-12T05:30:07Z")
But don’t you understand?! This is about 9/11! We even took the date and made it into something terrible and tragic. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/325 "2007-09-12T05:40:37Z")
The aftermath of 9/11 was pretty funny. I mean come on, using duct tape to protect yourself against a chemical attack? A color coded terrorist warning chart\*? People in Bumfuck, Indiana worrying about a terrorist attack? “Go shopping”? That’s comedy gold. - - Doesn’t that pretty much tip our hand? Would you strike when it’s red or orange and there’s stepped up security? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/326 "2007-09-12T05:42:14Z")
I came home from work about 11:30 pm (10:30 am Eastern time), turned on the TV which had the live broadcast. As an American living abroad, I had a different reaction than either Americans living in the USA, or foreigners in their own countries. Not seeing it on the news for 24 hours a day for however long it went on, was one reason, I’m sure. In one sense, I became an outsider. I found some of the reactions in the weeks after the event to be over-the-top, or manipulated but could not call them “fun” or “funny.” But even now, I wouldn’t post something controversial on a thread such as the one in question. People get acclimatized to fearful events, and since this was the first exposure for most Americans, I can fully understand the reactions, in contrast with countries, such as Spain and the UK, which have had a longer history of terrorism. I would guess that the first bombings in these other countries weren’t as panic-free as ones 30 years later. You can learn to shrug and go on with life, but that’s not going to happen the first time. Shootings (where bullet holes are found in glass, not even where people are shot and injured, let a long killed) are nation news here. As an American, I shrug and think that I wasn’t even close, but I don’t laugh at my friends who worry about them. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/327 "2007-09-12T05:42:49Z")
In six years on this board, this is the stupidest thread I have ever seen. “Yay, we’re here to fight ignorance! We read things, think about what we’ve read, and then we give thoughtful, measured responses!” But… “If you use any adjective other than ‘tragic’ to refer to 9/11, or the entire year that followed, you’re a fucking animal and you should be shot dead in the FUCKING STREET!” **Nava** said the attacks were awful and her hearts went out to us. The “running around like chickens with their heads cut off” line appeared to be aimed at the disorganized and completely futile response we tried to put together. (Remember being told to wrap our houses in plastic and duct tape? Or was that anthrax? It’s all jumbled. Which is kind of the point.) Granted, “fun” was a poor word choice, and a remembrance thread was the wrong place to put it. But folks, I come to this board to get _away_ from the know-nothing, flag-waving assholes. Is seven pages in one day a record? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/328 "2007-09-12T05:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] But don’t you understand?! This is about 9/11! We even took the date and made it into something terrible and tragic. [/QUOTE] I’m not convinced that the “Remember the Alamo” mindset ever had anything to do with tragedy. It always seemed to me more akin to the tabloid obsessions with Princess Di and Paris Hilton. If you’re the immediate family of someone who died, then I’ve no issue so long as you don’t feel any more moral outrage or more special than the immediate relative of someone who was murdered by any other group of thugs. Anyone outside of that, are you sure you’re not just enjoying the ability to be “the wounded party”? If terrorists bother you, go and carpet bomb the Middle East or such. But if you’re not actually doing something productive towards solving the issues that led to the attacks, and you’re still feeling like you’re something special because you’re a member of the same country as a bunch of people who were (omg) murdered in a really spectacular fashion instead of a dull one like the other 500,000 unlucky joes that died the same year in the US, then I’m hard pressed to believe that Nava isn’t the only one having some enjoyment about. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/329 "2007-09-12T06:03:16Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] News flash: We don’t give a fuck what you think. We’re bigger than you and stronger and we _don’t need you_. [/QUOTE] Every time I fill out the citizenship paperwork here I find a reason not to send it in. I guess this might be this year’s one. I love this country, and would bleed or die to defend it. I sure as hell hate some of the people here though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/330 "2007-09-12T06:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=jackelope] Is seven pages in one day a record? [/QUOTE] I think the record goes to the thread started a month or so after 9/11, where the OP said she thought Osama bin Laden was kind of cute. Compared to that thread, this is the Teddy Bear’s Picnic. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/331 "2007-09-12T06:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=villa] I love this country, and would bleed or die to defend it. I sure as hell hate some of the people here though. [/QUOTE] Can’t that be said about any country though? Assholes are not unique to the US. I don’t care whether you decide to send in the papers but not doing it because of an asshole american is just silly. I bet there are one or two where you came from. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/332 "2007-09-12T06:17:20Z")
Yeah there are. Lots. And it is an irrational reaction. Just taking citizenship is a big step for me and it seems each time I get round to it I see something nauseating and put it off for a while again. I will do it eventually. If only for the reason there needs to be more people to cancel the wankers’ votes out. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/333 "2007-09-12T07:16:10Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Oh I didn’t expect to get away with it, I expected to open the gate to reactions other than “oh god it was horrible.” It was, but it was also a lot more. [/QUOTE] So you actually thought about your post before submitting it? You expected this kind of response from people, and you posted it anyway? And then you come into this thread, and come off as even more insensitive than you were before. I was trying to be fair and give you the benefit of the doubt. No more, especially when I think about the two friends I lost that day. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/334 "2007-09-12T07:17:50Z")
FWIW, I’ll also add a word of support for **Nava**. The original post perhaps wasn’t as well-phrased as it could have been given the context, but I didn’t find it at all offensive. And I find her to be an informative and entertaining poster in general, and rather like her “dispatches from Spain” approach. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/335 "2007-09-12T09:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=jackelope] Is seven pages in one day a record? [/QUOTE] No, it’s absolutely necessary in threads like this, because each time the page turns, we can pretend we’ve forgotten the apologies and explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/336 "2007-09-12T09:35:27Z")
The apology and explanation have been noted. The idea that watching the suffering Americans was fun is still being defended as not sounding so bad after all. It’s about as much fun as watching the trains being loaded for transport to Auschwitz. The idea that the terrorized Americans now know how other terrorized people feel is still being offered as a rationale for understanding the motives of barbarians. I understand it about as much as I understand how Indian Hater Jackson was trying to help the Indians with his Trail of Tears. As long as ideas like those are flying around, I’ll shoot them down. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/337 "2007-09-12T09:40:06Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Oh, yes? Like the bombings over the decades by ETA were “fun”? Like the Madrid commuter train bombings were “fun”? What the fuck kind of sicko thinks people dying in a terrorist attack is “fun” or “funny”? It’s _not_ funny, even in a dark, macabre way. Backpedal much? What kind of a sick fuck are you, to say that in a _memorial thread?_ In a _pit_ thread, discussing American over-reaction, _maybe_ that could be given a pass but where you said it? Tell me - at funerals with grieving widows and children do you feel compelled to comment on what a jackass the deceased was, and how fucking funny his death throes were to watch? Nava, you were out of line and grossly offensive. It doesn’t matter _which_ country or _which_ terror attack or how large or small the event might have been. What you said was entirely inappropriate for ANY memorial thread. [/QUOTE] I always think a really good way to make a rapid, and often amazingly accurate, assessment of the strength of someone’s position, if you don’t actually have the time to read the full substance of the evidence (or don’t have access to it), is to observe the stupidity level of the rhetoric being used to defend it. I was certain there were no WMD because of the level of rhetorical spin being used to suggest the opposite. The thorough nuking of strawmen I observe in your post speaks (nay, shouts) volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/338 "2007-09-12T09:41:09Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] The apology and explanation have been noted. [/quote] If the explanation has indeed been noted, why did you go on to say this: > [@](#): > > The idea that watching the suffering Americans was fun is still being defended as not sounding so bad after all. It’s about as much fun as watching the trains being loaded for transport to Auschwitz. The idea that the terrorized Americans now know how other terrorized people feel is still being offered as a rationale for understanding the motives of barbarians. I understand it about as much as I understand how Indian Hater Jackson was trying to help the Indians with his Trail of Tears. As long as ideas like those are flying around, I’ll shoot them down. The explanation, I thought, was that it wasn’t the suffering that was ‘fun’ to watch, it was certain attributes of the response to the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/339 "2007-09-12T09:46:10Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Don’t know if this will help understand **Nava’s** possible use of the word ‘fun’ or not, but for my non-native-English-speaking husband and his entire extended family, the distinction between the words ‘fun’ and ‘funny’ are utterly baffling. … Knowing this gives me the impression that it’s possible that **Nava** may have meant something more akin to ‘funny’ than ‘fun’, which, while still not a particularly kind sentiment to express, paints quite a different picture of her attitude towards the events as she experienced them. I suspect she thought some of the ridiculous, over-the-top, jingoistic, frantic behaviour was _funny_. Maybe not “ha ha” funny, but, funny in a roll-your-eyes at the absurdity of it all kind of way. [/QUOTE] Definitely not haha funny, rolleyes absurd yes. Also, for some people I know but not for me, sort of a “home videos” funny (I can’t stand those programs, myself). But… “fun” and “funny” have different meanings? I thought they just had different grammar. I’d translate both of them as “divertido” or “tiene gracia” (which in Spanish mean the same) and refer to the specific situation as something like “tiene gracia pero no tiene maldita la gracia” (it’s funny but it’s not funny at all). Color me going to check my m-w as soon as I can get my hands on it… ---
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/340 "2007-09-12T09:47:35Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Actually, that was only the heat-of-the-moment reaction of one minister. And of about 40M Spaniards, but we weren’t on TV. [/QUOTE] Nava it was not one minister and it was not in the heat of the moment. [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_2004_Madrid_train_bombings) > [@](#): > > But according to a report of the ESISC (The European Strategic Intelligence and Security Center) the very same morning of the bombings the Spanish Intelligence Services and Policy had concluded that the author of the massacre was an Islamist terrorist group, but they had been ordered by the government to deny the Islamist lead and insist that the ETA was the only suspect,[3] although this same source also states that there is no precedent of collaboration of international islamists with non-Muslims,[4] and there were two non-Muslims (and police confidents) involved in the Madrid attacks.[5][6] > > The government sent messages to all Spanish embassies abroad ordering that they upheld the ETA version. President José María Aznar even called a number of newspaper directors personally to ask for their support of this version.[7] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=18)