# Nava, I can't let this go **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783 "2007-09-11T13:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/81 "2007-09-11T15:20:39Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Because it never occured to me that you could be reading what I said that way! [/QUOTE] Then re-read what you wrote. Right after you said watching the towers fall was ouchie, you said that watching Americans run around like headless chickens was fun. When I read that, I (and it seems others here) were picturing people running from the buildings. Seriously? You don’t get how that came across? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/82 "2007-09-11T15:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Stopping all plane travel in the States was a wise and brave move. I’d say that most if not all of the security measures carried out in the States in the days that followed were justified. Security was ramped up over here as well but the level of threat wasn’t the same and most Europeans didn’t fell much more at risk that normal, apart from the worry of WWIII kicking off that is. Making people stay in London becuase of attacks in NY is silly. For one London was/is the biggest target in Europe. Notice that it wasn’t just flying they were told not to do. Ferries etc. were banned as well. If you can’t see this as a over reaction then we’ll have to differ. [/QUOTE] It wasn’t the U.S. government that grounded her coworkers, it was her company’s managers. Maybe they were worried about people working for an American company being targeted (as people with American passports have been targeted in hijackings of planes). Maybe they needed those people there in case their company had to do something to react to the attacks (I have no idea what her company does…maybe they had some connection to Wall Street, etc.). I’m not really sure why her company’s decision is indicative of American overreaction (which I definitely agree that there was). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/83 "2007-09-11T15:22:17Z")
[QUOTE=fachverwirrt] The “official” death toll was somewhere between 2973 and 2976 (based on the numbers I’m finding with a quick google; nobody seems to quite agree). I’m not sure what you’ve been reading, but 3000 isn’t “much higher” than that. [/QUOTE] _3500_ - the numbers you’re quoting include the rescue workers, don’t they? She listed them as two separate stats, as if there were 3000 people killed in addition to 500 rescue workers killed. 3500 is a lot more than 2973 - 20% more, if my math is right. If not, I apologize. I’d also encourage you to go back and read for content instead of nitpicks. My point stands whether it was 3000 or 30,000 dead. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/84 "2007-09-11T15:22:24Z")
[QUOTE=MsWhatsit] I can’t believe someone is actually pissed off because offers of medical aid and blood donations were turned down, due to the fact that they weren’t needed because so many people were _dead_ instead of injured. [/QUOTE] That was not the reason we were given. We weren’t told “we have enough material resources, we’ll call you back when we have figured out how you can help.” We were told “no you’re not allowed to fly in.” Just yesterday I heard a Latin American woman talking with three guys, one of whom sounded Argentinian. The other two had accents from different parts of Spain. She mentioned that when she first got to Spain, she’d hear people say “hey, my head hurts, lower your volume, willya?” and think “how rude!”; in time, she’s realized it’s not intended to offend and may actually get the volume lowered than the convoluted and ultrapolite way in which she’d phrase it back home. Part of our taking offense was at the phrasing. I know no offense was intended, but try explaining it to people who’ve never been more than 100km away from home except in organized tours where everybody else is also from the same town. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/85 "2007-09-11T15:23:44Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] Well, the towers falling and the headless chickens were in the same sentence, and the same networks which showed us the towers falling showed us injured people covered in soot running through the streets on that day. I don’t recall seeing any government officials actually running in panic. It may have happened, but I didn’t see it. [/QUOTE] Mayor Rudy Guiliani did have to run like a “headless chicken” and hid out in an abandoned building. What fun! The air traffic controllers were sitting there not knowing what to do. Finally the head guy said to let them land. Someone asked “Do you mean to give them the option of landing.” He said (and I quote) “Get those fucking planes out of that fucking sky.” I maintain you cannot compare the magnitude and unexpectedness of the attacks of 9/11 with acts of World War II. Apples and oranges may both be round seeded fruits, bu there are differences. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/86 "2007-09-11T15:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Because it never occured to me that you could be reading what I said that way! [/QUOTE] Oh give me a fucking break. The first thing I thought of when I read your post was the people in NYC looking up, everybody looking up, and thinking about Chicken Little. Except, for them, the sky _was_ falling. Now turn your bicycle seat back around. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/87 "2007-09-11T15:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] Because it took you that long to come up with a bullshit excuse… [/QUOTE] Well I got it and gave my interpretation before **Nava** clarified. It seemed pretty clear to me in context. I wasn’t trying to be offended though. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/88 "2007-09-11T15:26:27Z")
[QUOTE=Nutty Bunny] Then re-read what you wrote. Right after you said watching the towers fall was ouchie, you said that watching Americans run around like headless chickens was fun. When I read that, I (and it seems others here) were picturing people running from the buildings. Seriously? You don’t get how that came across? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I can see it now but it had just never occurred to me that you guys could think I meant the people who had actually been attacked. The towers falling were one thing, and prompted one set of reactions. Anger at the terrorists, anger at politicians who sit on their asses not letting cops deal with terrorists (or even running terrorist groups themselves, search for GAL), pain for the dead and their families. The over reactions were another, and prompted a different reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/89 "2007-09-11T15:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Making people stay in London becuase of attacks in NY is silly. For one London was/is the biggest target in Europe. Notice that it wasn’t just flying they were told not to do. Ferries etc. were banned as well. If you can’t see this as a over reaction then we’ll have to differ. [/QUOTE] Having them stay out of the skies, I agree with, since it was hijacked planes that the terrorists used. Makes some sense, right? But I do think that banning ferry travel is a bit much. So we kind of agree…ish. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/90 "2007-09-11T15:26:53Z")
If you read the last paragraph in the context of the whole post, it’s not impossible to concieve that **Nava** was talking about the reaction in the days and weeks that followed the attacks, not the actual people fleeing them on the day. It’s not nearly unambiguous enough, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to insist that **Nava** _was_ referring to the people fleeing the attacks and has now tried to backpedal. ---
**Author:** ![beanpod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9adbd/32.png) [@beanpod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beanpod)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/91 "2007-09-11T15:27:45Z")
sigh. Anaamika, yes, I read your post, and I was going to bow out, but arguments about sensational issues draw us all in. Your post illustrated my point–people are just mad because this is about 9/11, and aren’t really thinking it through. And I did say it would be unpopular. Suggesting that I couldn’t have a different opinion than you without outside inducement was a little snarky, you’ve gotta admit. I’m sorry that my post doesn’t help you come to terms with a personal argument with your friend. It wasn’t intended to. It was directed at the angry frothing crowd in general. Your personal argument–that’s between you two. My post was in response to those who only seemed to be reacting because she dared to mention memories that didn’t mesh with everyone’s sadness. > [@](#): > > But what shocked me was it was Nava, and that it was totally unnecessary - in a 9/11 remembrance thread. Tell me, what purpose did that exactly serve? And not one comment out of her mouth along the lines of “I’m sorry, that was insensitive. It may have been true, but it wasn’t the right place to say it.” But only justifications, justifications, justifications. But her memories are hers, and valid, and I think a thread about 9/11 memories is an appropriate place for it. It wasn’t a political statement–it was put badly, and tactlessly, I admit. But that’s what happens when you get people together discussing an emotionally charged subject. But the vitriol to which everyone was responding stuck with me. The argument was moving from “that’s not an appropriate place to say that,” to “that’s not an appropriate thing to say.” > [@](#): > > I keep saying it - is anyone listening? It’s certainly OK to make fun of us! It’s OK to say we overreacted. What I don’t think is OK is Nava’s original statement “Watching Americans run around like chickens with their heads cut off was fun.” If that’s how you feel, then I didn’t have a beef with you. The tone was veering dangerously close to “If you’re not with us, you’re against us,” which actually does _offend_ me. It seems to me she’s awkwardly explaining her point, because she’s being attacked. Not defending her actions, but they’re certainly understandable. It was tactless, yes, but I don’t think it’s necessary to put _the exact words she didn’t say_ into her mouth for the purposes of the argument. sigh. Now I’m taking my ball and going home. :o ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/92 "2007-09-11T15:28:22Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] That was not the reason we were given. We weren’t told “we have enough material resources, we’ll call you back when we have figured out how you can help.” We were told “no you’re not allowed to fly in.” [/QUOTE] If I recall correctly, no one was allowed to fly in. Grounding of all flights may have been overreaction, but given what had just happened, seems like a fairly reasonable temporary measure to me even in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/93 "2007-09-11T15:30:05Z")
I have never understood the feeling among some non-US people after 9/11 that now America would know what it’s like to live in fear of terrorism. What kind of fucked up country do you live in that _terrorism_ and _the threat of more terrorism at any given time_ is the norm? And people think Americans live in some sick “culture of violence.” What a crock of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/94 "2007-09-11T15:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] Indeed: that shows how hard it is to defend against such actions. However, while there are a few isolated crazies in the US, the US does not face a long-standing campaign by a large section of the population in an region to separate. [/QUOTE] Good point, if anything though, I think 9/11 emboldened some of the internal groups to start thinking bigger. [QUOTE=Giles] Except for the military personnel in the Pentagon, of course. [/QUOTE] Alright, in the sense that they’re in the military. They were still normal folks who just went to the office to push papers that day. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/95 "2007-09-11T15:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mr Bus Guy] Alright, in the sense that they’re in the military. They were still normal folks who just went to the office to push papers that day. [/QUOTE] Are you fucking kidding me? This is possibly the dumbest thing I’ve read on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/96 "2007-09-11T15:31:58Z")
Ferries were banned in London.?I don’t think that was the fault of the USA. Ferries were running from New York to New Jersey, and they were the only way New Jersey people could get home that day. Nobody knew what would happen next. Buses were banned for fear of a bomb going off in the Lincoln Tunnel. What fools we were. Nobody would bomb the tube! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/97 "2007-09-11T15:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=C3] It wasn’t the U.S. government that grounded her coworkers, it was her company’s managers. Maybe they were worried about people working for an American company being targeted (as people with American passports have been targeted in hijackings of planes). Maybe they needed those people there in case their company had to do something to react to the attacks (I have no idea what her company does…maybe they had some connection to Wall Street, etc.). I’m not really sure why her company’s decision is indicative of American overreaction (which I definitely agree that there was). [/QUOTE] Where did she say she was talking about the US government or the US in general. the post that led to the piting > [@](#): > > To me, the biggest immediate changes caused by 9/11 were: > > - Logistics managers from all over Europe had been in a 24h meeting in London. They weren’t allowed to go back home until our managers in the US got their washed underwear back… not just not allowed to fly, but take the train or the ferry. Most of the people who got stuck in London would have been much calmer if they’d been allowed to go back home and hug their families. At least the company had the decency to give them a clothing allocation. > > - Someone suddenly realized that my factory contained explosive substances and was in terrorist country. Gee, no shit, and it took 30 years and 30K dead 3K miles away for you to notice? So for a while we had three rent-a-cops in the factory 24/7, while before there had only been one on the 4 days a year where no production was going on. > > I grew up under threat of terrorism. Watching the towers fall was ouchie, watching the americans run around like headless chickens… was actually kind of fun. What I can see is her talking about Americans, Americans who made the decision that she was talking about. I’m don’t really care if you tear her a new one so bad she never posts here again but the least people can do is attack her for what she actually siad not how people are bending it to mean. It was a stupid thing to say in the context of the thread I said that in my first post in this thread. She could have worded it better or better again just keep her fucking moth shut but here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Tibidabo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Tibidabo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibidabo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/98 "2007-09-11T15:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] :rolleyes: No, that was total war you ignorant asshole. Jackass. [/QUOTE] Tens if not hundreds of thousands systematically murdered in Latin America by right wing militias and strongman dictators supported funded and encouraged by the US government? Not spectacular enough to make an impact in the American psyche if theres no spectacular explosions to replay on the evening news? I was horrified on Sept 11. Don’t get me wrong. But the attitude of “poor us, what did we do to deserve this?” pisses me off no end. You reap what you sow. It’s awful, I don’t condone it or like it anywhere. But it has to be expected when you live in a country with such a cold-blooded, ruthless and aggressive foreign policy ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/99 "2007-09-11T15:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] What kind of fucked up country do you live in that _terrorism_ and _the threat of more terrorism at any given time_ is the norm? [/quote] The UK. Or Spain, or Israel, Ireland, Germany, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Lebanon, Cyprus, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Iraq, Russia, France, Nepal, China. The majority of the world’s population, in other words. Fucked up countries all. And now, sadly, the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/100 "2007-09-11T15:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] Are you fucking kidding me? This is possibly the dumbest thing I’ve read on this board. [/QUOTE] Yeah, well you’re new, hang around a while dickface. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=6)