# Nava, I can't let this go **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2007, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783 "2007-09-11T13:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/141 "2007-09-11T16:16:10Z")
Oh, and I’m sure this is neither here nor there, but… [QUOTE=Anaamika] I can say for sure I don’t think it’s fun one bit that you have to mention that you’re from Spain in every one of your posts. I’m so sick and tired of hearing how Spain is so much better and how you are apparently from God’s country, but you know, I managed to keep my mouth shut and be polite about it. [/QUOTE] Seconded! I’m glad someone finally said it. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/142 "2007-09-11T16:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] Over-reacting “American individuals”. Not every single American national over-reacted, not every single reaction was over-the-top. [/QUOTE] To let you know, not every American is over reacting to your post either. I got what you said and I understood what you meant. September 11th 2001 was a bad day, as was March 11th 2004. **Martin Hyde’s** post was more offensive than your post, even if you meant it as you were accused. It shames me that he will be associated with me just because we’re both Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/143 "2007-09-11T16:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Certainly nothing as egregious as agreeing to bend over for terrorists like Spain did after Al-Qaeda struck at them. I know this is the pit, but is no one going to address this little piece of utter ignorance? In fact, I remember we had dispelled this in a prior thread on this very board. You have my sympathies, **Nava** , but hey, the SDMB is a US based board, I’m sure you saw it coming. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/144 "2007-09-11T16:22:33Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Where did she say she was talking about the US government or the US in general. the post that led to the piting What I can see is her talking about Americans, Americans who made the decision that she was talking about. I’m don’t really care if you tear her a new one so bad she never posts here again but the least people can do is attack her for what she actually siad not how people are bending it to mean. It was a stupid thing to say in the context of the thread I said that in my first post in this thread. She could have worded it better or better again just keep her fucking moth shut but here we are. [/QUOTE] I was addressing what _you_ were saying, not what **Nava** was saying. You said you thought it was reasonable that flights were grounded in the U.S., but unreasonable that Nava’s coworkers were grounded in London. I was merely pointing out that it’s possible the company had very good reasons to keep them there, one of which may have been they needed them in an operational manner (she did say they were “logistics” people). I’m also hoping you weren’t addressing the “tear her a new one” comment at me because I haven’t at all commented on what she said. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/145 "2007-09-11T16:22:46Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] You morons can barely manage your own country, you had to have a tin-pot dictator like Franco leading you around like sheep for fifty years, after all. Why the fuck would we want a bunch of incompetent, fuck ups from Spain helping us? We have fire fighters here in the United States. **We don’t need your help** , just like we didn’t need your help in Iraq if your response to terrorism is to tuck your tails between your legs and whimper out just like Al-Qaeda wanted you to do. Al-Qaeda should give you guys an award for being such disgusting cowards. [/QUOTE] No reactive thoughts here. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/146 "2007-09-11T16:23:02Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Well, shit if that phrase ever had meaning, both literally and figuratively, it was on 9/11/2001 [/QUOTE] And when morons keep parroting it like you have in this thread, it becomes almost meaningless, just another sound bite. Especially when it’s offered in the context of posts, like yours, that try to turn this into some sort of “My country suffered worse than your country” pissing contest, as pointed out ably by **WhyNot** in post #50 of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/147 "2007-09-11T16:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] > [@Nava](#): > > I realize I should have put the “in a black humor kind of way” in my original post, but please, if you’re going to quote me, do it right. “Kind of fun” is not the same as “fun.” Or at least it’s not to me, we seem to be getting into the language issues part of the cake. > > Like I’ve said before, I realize my original post was written too hastily and that I made the mistake of bringing anything other than condolences to a thread about condolences. I’m sorry for causing you pain. If I wanted to quote you 100% correctly, rest assured I would have put it in a quote tag. I was paraphrasing. I’ve said enough, too. I don’t want your non-apology apology. I’m out of this thread, goodbye. [/QUOTE] It looks to me like Nava apologized, unequivocally, in that post. At this point, I think everyone should be able to let it go, and not let this thread get even nastier than it has been. For my part: apology accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/148 "2007-09-11T16:25:27Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] Many were civilians, many were active duty personnel. The fact that you’re part of the military, on active duty, makes you a combatant in its essence. It doesn’t matter if you’re a pencil-pusher or not, you still have to train physically, you still have to fire weapons annually and qualify, you still have to study strategic and tactical aspects of warfare, and your total existence is supporting, and carrying out when called upon, an aggressive foreign policy. If you disagree, then the point stands that 100% of those who died in Hiroshima were non-combatants as there weren’t any active battles occurring in Hiroshima at the time of the atomic bomb detonation. [/QUOTE] Are you 100% certain that no Japanese military personnel were in Hiroshima? Your argument still doesn’t make any sense, since there were civilians in the Pentagon. They were non-combatants in every sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Nutty\_Bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d07c76/32.png) [@Nutty\_Bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nutty_Bunny)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/149 "2007-09-11T16:25:53Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I know this is the pit, but is no one going to address this little piece of utter ignorance? In fact, I remember we had dispelled this in a prior thread on this very board. [/QUOTE] I think that because it was said by **Martin Hyde** , a lot of eyes rolled, but no one felt compelled to throw the dog a bone. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/150 "2007-09-11T16:26:25Z")
[QUOTE=C3] I was addressing what _you_ were saying, not what **Nava** was saying. You said you thought it was reasonable that flights were grounded in the U.S., but unreasonable that Nava’s coworkers were grounded in London. I was merely pointing out that it’s possible the company had very good reasons to keep them there, one of which may have been they needed them in an operational manner (she did say they were “logistics” people). [/quote] Flights maybe but every sort of transport? From London to the continent? Yep. OTT IMO. > [@](#): > > I’m also hoping you weren’t addressing the “tear her a new one” comment at me because I haven’t at all commented on what she said. I wasn’t. That was a general comment. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/151 "2007-09-11T16:27:17Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] You do realize that a headless chicken is one that has been slaughtered? Right? Their heads (the chicken’s) don’t fall off due to natural causes. [/quote] You do realize that “running around like chickens with their heads cut off” if a common American expression referring to randomness and ineffectuality of action, and not directly referring to the slaughter of the chickens? Right? Because that’s the case. I grant that it’s a poor choice of words in this context, but this: > [@](#): > > But they way that is written, there inturpetation that she had fun watching the people run in fear from the collapsing towers, is the most logical. is ridiculous. It’s not by any means the most logical interpretation. . ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/152 "2007-09-11T16:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove] I know this is the pit, but is no one going to address this little piece of utter ignorance? In fact, I remember we had dispelled this in a prior thread on this very board. You have my sympathies, **Nava** , but hey, the SDMB is a US based board, I’m sure you saw it coming. [/QUOTE] How can you debunk fact? Spain gets attacked and then elects someone who guarantees them he’ll shamefully run out of Iraq to make Spain even more irrelevant on the world stage than it already was. The attacks happened immediately prior to the election, the idea that a significant number of voters wouldn’t be impacted by their own internal cowardice after being attacked is doubtful. In America, a pacifist candidate who was advocating we essentially do what the terrorists want us to do would be humiliated at the ballot box. Such a candidate becomes Prime Minister in Spain as his party is swept in to power on a wave of pacifist desire to roll over and play dead. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/153 "2007-09-11T16:28:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr Bus Guy] Yeah, well you’re new, hang around a while dickface. [/QUOTE] It’s true, **Dudley** you won’t believe how stupid he can get. Anyway, I was curious how **What Exit?** would judge something an act of terrorism. Is it that an army can’t commit terrorism? Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds because there really was an armed separatist movement there, although there was no declared war. The firebombing of Dresden served no military purpose, and only terrorized the pouplation. What is it that differentiates it from the attack on the Kurds? Is it the use of gas? I’m pretty sure that inhaling 800º air is no more pleasant. Is it because the Germans did worse things? Or is it because it’s us? ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/154 "2007-09-11T16:30:41Z")
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat] Are you 100% certain that no Japanese military personnel were in Hiroshima? [/quote] Where did I say “military personnel?” (I actually said 95% were civilians) > [@](#): > > Your argument still doesn’t make any sense, since there were civilians in the Pentagon. They were non-combatants in every sense of the word. It makes perfect sense. Go back re-read the thread. Civilians died in the Pentagon; active duty military died in the Pentagon. There are not equally “non-combatants.” Do you get it? Let me spell it out for you, in much clearer terms. 1. The Pentagon attack caused the deaths of over 100 people. 2. Some dead were civilians. 3. Some dead were non-active duty military. 4. Some dead were active duty military. 5. Not all dead were non-combatants. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/155 "2007-09-11T16:30:49Z")
**DudleyGarrett** , you have demonstrated to my satisfaction that you have no idea what “non-combatant” means, despite my helpful posting of a dictionary definition earlier. Thanks. And to both you and **mhendo** , I agree that the people in Hiroshima and the civilians in Iraq were non-combatants. That doesn’t have any bearing on what **Mr Bus Guy** said, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/156 "2007-09-11T16:31:53Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] How can you debunk fact? Spain gets attacked and then elects someone who guarantees them he’ll shamefully run out of Iraq to make Spain even more irrelevant on the world stage than it already was. The attacks happened immediately prior to the election, the idea that a significant number of voters wouldn’t be impacted by their own internal cowardice after being attacked is doubtful. In America, a pacifist candidate who was advocating we essentially do what the terrorists want us to do would be humiliated at the ballot box. Such a candidate becomes Prime Minister in Spain as his party is swept in to power on a wave of pacifist desire to roll over and play dead. [/QUOTE] You are a stupid fuck. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/157 "2007-09-11T16:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] How can you debunk fact? Spain gets attacked and then elects someone who guarantees them he’ll shamefully run out of Iraq to make Spain even more irrelevant on the world stage than it already was. The attacks happened immediately prior to the election, the idea that a significant number of voters wouldn’t be impacted by their own internal cowardice after being attacked is doubtful. In America, a pacifist candidate who was advocating we essentially do what the terrorists want us to do would be humiliated at the ballot box. Such a candidate becomes Prime Minister in Spain as his party is swept in to power on a wave of pacifist desire to roll over and play dead. [/QUOTE] There are some interpretations of Al Qaeda’s actions that indicate Bin Laden was attempting to precipitate a war between “the West” and “the Ummah”. Invading one Islamic nation (legitimately, IMO), and then another one (illegitimately, IMO) could also be seen as doing what the terrorists wanted. There are few other reactions I can really see that would have fulfilled his wishes so neatly as that undertaken by your government at the time. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/158 "2007-09-11T16:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] How can you debunk fact? Spain gets attacked and then elects someone who guarantees them he’ll shamefully run out of Iraq to make Spain even more irrelevant on the world stage than it already was. The attacks happened immediately prior to the election, the idea that a significant number of voters wouldn’t be impacted by their own internal cowardice after being attacked is doubtful. In America, a pacifist candidate who was advocating we essentially do what the terrorists want us to do would be humiliated at the ballot box. Such a candidate becomes Prime Minister in Spain as his party is swept in to power on a wave of pacifist desire to roll over and play dead. [/QUOTE] Wow. You really, actually believe that shit, don’t you? I thought it was impossible for you to surprise me with your idiocy, but kudos, you’ve managed it. And given a choice between “shamefully run[ning] out of Iraq” (your assertion about Spain) and shamefully running into it (a la the US), well, you work out which one has done the most damage. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/159 "2007-09-11T16:36:53Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] **DudleyGarrett** , you have demonstrated to my satisfaction that you have no idea what “non-combatant” means. [/QUOTE] Woe is me, I haven’t demonstrated to Judge Crotalus’ satisfaction that I know what non-combatant means. Perhaps it’s because that I was both a combatant and a non-combatant that I understand the term goes much deeper than what can be comprehended from an on-line dictionary. Good on you, Judge Crotalus, you’ve the wisdom simply unattainable by the proletariat. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783/160 "2007-09-11T16:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] How can you debunk fact? Spain gets attacked and then elects someone who guarantees them he’ll shamefully run out of Iraq to make Spain even more irrelevant on the world stage than it already was. The attacks happened immediately prior to the election, the idea that a significant number of voters wouldn’t be impacted by their own internal cowardice after being attacked is doubtful. In America, a pacifist candidate who was advocating we essentially do what the terrorists want us to do would be humiliated at the ballot box. Such a candidate becomes Prime Minister in Spain as his party is swept in to power on a wave of pacifist desire to roll over and play dead. [/QUOTE] No you’re wrong. After the attack the government tried to put the blame on ETA for political gain. They were caught doing this and paid the price. A angry populace voted them out. The party that was voted in was always anti-war as was the majority of the Spanish population. There were obviously people who thought like you are accusing them of but that’s not why the government fell. Kinda like the way you a ignorant jingoistic fuckwit but there are millions upon millions of level headed human beings or menches (for want of a better word) in the US even though you and your ilk sometimes shout the loudest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nava-i-cant-let-this-go/418783.md?page=9)