# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/181 "2024-01-12T04:26:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > But if I’m more than happy to do it knowing they don’t like it, do I really respect their beliefs? I’d have to say the answer is no. You’d have to define “respect”. I don’t think holding the view that people should not impose their religious beliefs on others is disrespectful. If it is, then they are equally disrespectful of my beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/182 "2024-01-12T04:30:11Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > But if I’m more than happy to do it knowing they don’t like it, do I really respect their beliefs? I’d have to say the answer is no. It’s not really as though putting corpse parts on the moon is a traditional practice in any other belief system, either. Nor does it advance science, develop technology, or do any of the other stuff that expensive and resource-intensive moon missions have typically been expected to do. Mind you, that doesn’t necessarily mean that wasteful and pointless arbitrary whims like putting corpse parts on the moon ought to be illegal. But I agree with you that if a corpse-part launcher is saying to the Navajo “I’m more than happy to continue pursuing my wasteful and pointless arbitrary whim despite its affronting your longstanding culturally important belief”, that’s not coming across as particularly respectful of said belief. [ETA and long delayed: thanks, Eonwe, good to know!] ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/183 "2024-01-12T04:38:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not really as though putting corpse parts on the moon is a traditional practice in any other belief system, either. You’re on very shaky ground if you think “tradition” should trump anything. Most religious belief systems were far less tolerant as you look back in time, and have been forced into greater tolerance by secular social forces. But even if it did, at what point in history exactly did Navajo tradition establish its prohibition on placing human remains on the Moon? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/184 "2024-01-12T04:40:03Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I really don’t see how “we’re not sure exactly what they are asking for” contributes to that, other than to obfuscate. If the Navajo are _not_ asking the government to do anything to stop the mission, then there is no issue. If they are, then the government should decline. ⁢ What it accomplishes is pointing out the false dichotomy here. The only options are not allow or don’t allow. There are other sacred lands that Navajo believe in, and yet remains are allowed on those. So there’s likely to some way to come to a peaceful agreement, that doesn’t involve all of this hostility towards a group for having a religious belief and expressing it. Maybe there could be accommodations on where the remains are located. And I do agree it’s hard for me to get passionate about this in any way, because there’s no real need to let rich people scatter their remains to the moon. I personally would prefer to keep the moon unsullied by capitalism for as long as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/185 "2024-01-12T04:42:52Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You’re on very shaky ground if you think “tradition” should trump anything. Disagreements between religious tradition and the wasteful and pointless arbitrary whims of consumer culture are nothing but very shaky ground. Neither believers in traditional ideas of “sacredness” nor cosmic-woohaha sentimentalists thinking it’s meaningful to spend massive amounts of money and resources to put cremains pinches on the moon have a leg to stand on in terms of objective rational defense of their desires. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/186 "2024-01-12T04:47:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Disagreements between religious tradition and the wasteful and pointless arbitrary whims of consumer culture are nothing but very shaky ground. How about disagreements with religious tradition that heretics should die or that LGBT people are evil? Tradition is just about the worst metric you could choose for whether something should be respected. Most religions have been dragged grudgingly out of traditional intolerance by secular social forces. So the real issue here is who is seeking to impose their religious beliefs on others. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Neither believers in traditional ideas of “sacredness” nor cosmic-woohaha sentimentalists thinking it’s meaningful to spend massive amounts of money and resources to put cremains pinches on the moon have a leg to stand on in terms of objective rational defense of their desires. I completely agree, but only one of those groups is seeking to impose their intolerant beliefs to constrain the objectively harmless behavior of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/187 "2024-01-12T04:56:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > At events where people bow their heads and there’s a prayer I will remain silent out of respect just as an example. Certainly. But in that case, it’s the people I respect, not their beliefs. As long as the beliefs to not contradict my own too badly, I’ll mostly go along with them at whatever event. “Respect” has a lot of different meanings. It can just mean an acknowledgement of existence, in which case sure, I respect their beliefs. It can mean I think the thing carries legitimate power, like saying I’ll respect a court order. I don’t accept that here. Or it could mean I have deference or even admiration for their beliefs, in which case hell no–I consider them as laughable as any other superstition. Whether my default position switches from neutral coexistence to mockery and deliberate offense depends on whether they try to impose their beliefs on me. Buu Nygren, at least, is certainly leaning towards being in the latter category. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/188 "2024-01-12T04:57:35Z")
If someone doesn’t want human remains on the Moon then they shouldn’t send their remains to the moon. That’s simple enough. That expectation does not extend to others. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/189 "2024-01-12T04:59:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not really as though putting corpse parts on the moon is a traditional practice in any other belief system, either. No, but putting remains in a prominent place that you can look at to “visit” your dear departed is a traditional Christian practice. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/190 "2024-01-12T05:00:31Z")
The Navajo don’t want _any_ human remains on the moon. It ain’t gonna get to the moon anyway. Big failure. Pretty sure they have time to bring a lawsuit or three, now. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/191 "2024-01-12T05:03:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > But trouble in space means the Navajo (well, those of them who care) can breath easy, for now: > > I like this Navajo god that can pwn NASA. I just wanted to agree with this post. Maybe there’s something to their religion. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/192 "2024-01-12T05:05:06Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > It ain’t gonna get to the moon anyway. I blame Tklehanoai. We should start a Pit thread. [Hah, ninjaed by @puzzlegal] ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/193 "2024-01-12T05:10:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How about disagreements with religious tradition that heretics should die or that LGBT people are evil? Huh? There are in fact objective rational reasons, in a human society that throughout its identifiable history has contained many different religious traditions and naturally occurring minorities of LGBT people, for promoting religious pluralism and equal rights before the law irrespective of religion, sexual orientation, or gender identity. That’s certainly not analogous to promoting the wasteful and pointless placing of corpse parts on the moon. Perhaps the parties involved could work out a compromise, as BigT suggested? Maybe, for example, the corpse parts could be placed on the moon as planned, and the concomitant alleged desecration of the moon neutralized by burying the cremains under a mound of powdered dogshit. Mind you, I have no idea whether powdered dogshit is in fact considered a desecration-neutralizing substance in traditional Navajo belief. But if it were, then surely nobody shipping the cremains would have any objection, since the dogshit would be doing zero objective harm either to the cremains or to the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/194 "2024-01-12T05:47:53Z")
I don’t know this. But I bet the human gunk/ash, whatever is in a sealed container and not actually gonna touch moon dust at all. Just lay there. Hasn’t anybody watched Star Trek where Spocks coffin soft landed on that unstable planet. The moon is dead, no microbes are gonna turn into ugly bug looking things. And human remains aren’t gonna be brought back to life. Even if a tiny bit of Nimoy is in one of the hermetically sealed tiny capsules. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/195 "2024-01-12T10:28:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But even if it did, at what point in history exactly did Navajo tradition establish its prohibition on placing human remains on the Moon? It’s [a long story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din%C3%A9_Bahane%CA%BC#The_Coming_of_Death). The gist of it is: > Four days later the two witnesses who had looked down on the dead twin also died. The people learned that it is dangerous to look at the dead. That’s what it’s about. The prohibition on looking at the dead. From that some have extrapolated an interpretation that having dead on the Moon would spoil their view of it. Since it wouldn’t be visible, that’s an overly literal extrapolation of their prohibition. Every religion is plagued by those who make overly literal extrapolations of what were originally simple rules. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/196 "2024-01-12T11:50:37Z")
I have a different view of this matter. I live in a place where religion, politics and real estate are intractably, often violently intertwined. On a regular basis, one party or another will loudly declare that some site is holy to them, and so no other party can enter there, or pray there, or yes, bury their dead there. It’s an expression of power, not religion, and that leads to tensions, which often leads to bloodshed. Now, I have nothing but good will toward the Navajo nation, and I certainly don’t believe that they’re intentionally using this incident to stake their exclusive claim to the Moon. But the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I think that giving in to their request would set a very bad precedent. Let’s leave our sectarian conflicts here on Earth, OK? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/197 "2024-01-12T13:10:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Some day, people might live on the moon. At that time, those people would have the right to object to ashes being left on their doorstep. Until then, it’s pretty silly. They would probably welcome them. Any lunar settlement would probably have a shortage of various useful elements, particularly phosphorous; sending cremains to the Moon would actively help the sustainability of such settlements. Send more, please, in clearly marked and damage-resistant containers. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/198 "2024-01-12T13:13:36Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Any lunar settlement would probably have a shortage of various useful elements, particularly phosphorous; sending cremains to the Moon would actively help the sustainability of such settlements. Send more, please, in clearly marked and damage-resistant containers. Eating human remains? That’s horrible, disgusting, and vile! How could you even consider such a thing? _Munches on chips made from potatoes grown on Earth, home to 110 billion dead humans_. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/199 "2024-01-12T15:38:30Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Don’t worry, whether you are alive or dead is a social construct. Do you have any evidence for that? Oh, I forgot, we are all Postmodernists now. The New Postmodernist Dictionary defines ‘evidence’ as a synonym for ‘My Opinion’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/200 "2024-01-12T15:43:36Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > > [@Riemann](#): > > > > Don’t worry, whether you are alive or dead is a social construct. > > Do you have any evidence for that? > Oh, I forgot, we are all Postmodernists now. I’m sure that was intended as a joke, but “Alive” and “Dead” _are_ social constructs. Hence why as our understanding of the human body grew we had to come up with new terms and concepts, like “brain death” or the idea that “you’re not dead until you’re warm and dead”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=11)