# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/241 "2024-01-12T18:42:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, that’s certainly a good argument for why being gay shouldn’t be made illegal, but if I know being gay pisses off Christians, aren’t I still being somewhat of an asshole by being gay anyway? If I build a lunar colony and start selling homes there, and a bunch of Christian groups come to me and demand I refuse to sell units to gay couples because they don’t want to look at sodomy every time they glance up, should that be respected? What if Muslim groups demand I evict an artist who turned his moon buggy garage into an art studio and started drawing Muhammad? What if a Jewish group demanded I forbid pork in my moon base? What if some very traditionalist Hindus demand that I forbid people of lower castes from living in the holy domain of Chandra? And what if the Navajo demanded that I send anyone who is sick or injured back to Earth, even if transferring them would be dangerous, to ensure that a dead body never ends up on the moon? I’m not asking you to respond to each example, I want to understand **by what metric** you propose we decide which of these demands are reasonable to accommodate, which are fine to hear but unreasonable to meet, and which are offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/242 "2024-01-12T18:43:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And why do you keep ignoring the actual point, that the asymmetry is not in the specifics of the two beliefs, it is that only one side is trying to impose their beliefs on the other by constraining their behavior. I’m not “ignoring” it: it’s just that it’s obviously false. Of course the people who are actually putting corpse parts on the moon are imposing on the entire society their belief that it’s okay to put corpse parts on the moon. They can do this mostly unremarked because it so happens that most of the society agrees with that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/243 "2024-01-12T18:43:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m not asking you to respond to each example, I want to understand **by what metric** you propose we decide which of these demands are reasonable to accommodate, which are fine to hear but unreasonable to meet, and which are offensive? You’re asking **Kimstu** that, not me, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/244 "2024-01-12T18:44:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Between Celestis and the Navajo Nation, only one group is doing something that offends my personal beliefs. Which, I guess, makes them “somewhat of an asshole,” at least per your logic. But _your_ beliefs aren’t based on really old superstitions so they aren’t a valid basis to judge assholititude! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/245 "2024-01-12T18:45:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re asking **Kimstu** that, not me, correct? Yes, correct - I was using the quoted bit of your post as a springboard, but that was directed at @Kimstu. I know very well (and agree with) _your_ position - that every one of those groups should fuck off and let me run my secular moon base however I want. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/246 "2024-01-12T18:46:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Of course the people who are actually putting corpse parts on the moon are imposing on the entire society their belief that it’s okay to put corpse parts on the moon. You left out the “by constraining their behavior” part of that quote, which I believe is significant to the argument being made. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/247 "2024-01-12T18:47:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Of course the people who are actually putting corpse parts on the moon are imposing… > > You left out the “by constraining their behavior” part of that quote, which I believe is significant to the argument being made Exactly. Having ashes (“corpse parts”) on the moon is _not_ an imposition by any rational metric. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/248 "2024-01-12T18:48:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If your argument here is that “religious freedom and pluralism are also a belief system" No, that’s not my argument. My argument is that the particular types of action and constraints on action that people treat as their “religion-neutral” societal default are also ultimately derived from belief systems that are just as fundamentally irrational as Navajo moon myths. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/249 "2024-01-12T18:51:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m not “ignoring” it: it’s just that it’s obviously false. Of course the people who are actually putting corpse parts on the moon are imposing on the entire society their belief that it’s okay to put corpse parts on the moon. They can do this mostly unremarked because it so happens that most of the society agrees with that belief. Nonsense. It is unremarked because it _does no objective harm_ and does not constrain anyone else from doing or believing what they choose in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/250 "2024-01-12T18:52:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, that’s not my argument. My argument is that the particular types of action and constraints on action that people treat as their “religion-neutral” societal default are also ultimately derived from belief systems that are just as fundamentally irrational as Navajo moon myths. What, in like a “all value systems ultimately devolve to unprovable moral axioms” sort of way? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/251 "2024-01-12T18:55:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > My argument is that the particular types of action and constraints on action that people treat as their “religion-neutral” societal default are also ultimately derived from belief systems that are just as fundamentally irrational as Navajo moon myths. I assume that by “societal default” you mean “derived from Christianity”? In which case I would counter that no, that’s not where my belief system comes from, and I don’t believe it is where @Chronos’ does either. My belief system comes from a conscious and deliberate examination of my held beliefs, both those that came from the tradition of my Jewish upbringing as well as the mainstream Christian derived culture; and not liking what I saw, rejecting much of that moral system. I don’t understand this argument. “Other belief systems exist!”. Yes, I know. I once _held_ a different belief system than I currently do, and I make an effort to examine my own beliefs on a regular basis. Does that make me completely rational? Of course not. As a human, that is not an achievable goal. But it makes your claims - that I am just blindly echoing the mainstream view without even being aware that other options exist - ring hollow, and feel extremely condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/252 "2024-01-12T19:00:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I know very well (and agree with) _your_ position - that every one of those groups should fuck off and let me run my secular moon base however I want. Ah yes, “my” “secular” moon base. How convenient that your personal right of individual property on lunar territory, and the types of control over that property that you are officially entitled to, are just assumed to be, intrinsically, a culturally and religiously neutral default reality. And it makes it very easy to answer your questions. Apparently you (somehow) personally possess officially recognized property rights on lunar territory, including the right to derive profit from transferring your property rights to part of that property (since otherwise, I assume, some enforcement agency would be interfering with your “selling homes there”). Therefore, you’re entitled to do whatever you want with your lunar property in accordance with whatever legal authority is recognizing and enforcing your property rights there. Not difficult. But not really relevant to deciding how societies should best accommodate differing cultural preferences about activities on a moon that isn’t private property. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/253 "2024-01-12T19:01:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What, in like a “all value systems ultimately devolve to unprovable moral axioms” sort of way? Whoa, man. That’s a good point. Can you pass the joint? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/254 "2024-01-12T19:06:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > How convenient that your personal right of individual property on lunar territory, and the types of control over that property that you are officially entitled to, are just assumed to be, intrinsically, a culturally and religiously neutral default reality. I’m very confused. Are we debating private property here, or religion? If you want to say that no one man should own a lunar base, that a system of capitalism that allows this to come about is inherently unjust, and that the workers of my moon base should sieze the means of production and toss me out an airlock, **I agree**. The idea of someone owning a space station on which thousands of people live is abhorent and dystopian. But that’s not what we are discussing here. We are discussing whether people should have the right to impose adherence to their religious views on others. If you want to scratch out each use of the word “my” and replace it with “Me and the other members of the Lunar Worker’s Council,” feel free to. It doesn’t change my point in the least. All those religious groups are approaching the LWC with the requests outlined above. I repeat my question: by what metrics should the LWC determine which requests are reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/255 "2024-01-12T19:07:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ah yes, “my” “secular” moon base. Okay, change it to “The Glorious People’s Socialist Moon Base,” and you still have exactly the same questions about who is allowed to constrain someone else’s actions, and you still have to convince me that “because my God says so,” is a valid reason for stopping me from doing what I’d like to do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/256 "2024-01-12T19:08:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, change it to “The Glorious People’s Socialist Moon Base,” > [@Babale](#): > > If you want to scratch out each use of the word “my” and replace it with “Me and the other members of the Lunar Worker’s Council,” feel free to. Splitters! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/257 "2024-01-12T19:08:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “The Glorious People’s Socialist Moon Base,” _Space 1984_ was one of my favorite British TV series as a kid. Moonbase Alpha! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/258 "2024-01-12T19:10:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I assume that by “societal default” you mean “derived from Christianity”? In which case I would counter that no, that’s not where my belief system comes from, and I don’t believe it is where @Chronos’ does either. My belief system comes from a conscious and deliberate examination of my held beliefs, both those that came from the tradition of my Jewish upbringing as well as the mainstream Christian derived culture; and not liking what I saw, rejecting much of that moral system. I’m not arguing with any of that; I’m just maintaining that it doesn’t preclude your having, just as everybody else has, default preconceptions and beliefs that are the result of societal acculturation rather than deliberate choice. If saying that makes me “condescending”, then I’m sorry: I don’t mean to offend you, and will not insist on continuing to reply to you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/259 "2024-01-12T19:11:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, change it to “The Glorious People’s Socialist Moon Base,” and you still have exactly the same questions about who is allowed to constrain someone else’s actions, and you still have to convince me that “because my God says so,” is a valid reason for stopping me from doing what I’d like to do. Great minds think alike, Comrade! > [@Miller](#): > > Splitters! Never mind, to the Space Gulag with you! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/260 "2024-01-12T19:12:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m not arguing with any of that; I’m just maintaining that it doesn’t preclude your having, just as everybody else has, default preconceptions and beliefs that are the result of societal acculturation rather than deliberate choice. And why would you infer from this awareness that allowing _anyone_ to impose their beliefs on others is a good thing? Isn’t the principle that _you cannot do this_ fundamental to protecting minority beliefs from persecution? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=14)