# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/81 "2024-01-10T02:56:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > but only one side is demanding the government step in and enforce their specific brand of nonsense. …it’s not as if it were put up to a vote. I didn’t even know the Artemis Accords _existed_, let alone my country was a signatory. If they can get an audience with the government, _good on them_. One would think the idea of “leaving human remains on the moon” is something that should be a matter of public debate, and _not_ left until the rocket is literally on the launchpad. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/82 "2024-01-10T03:01:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …as someone who has been quite tangentially involved in the repatriation of kōiwi and kōimi tangata, if any anthropologist tried to argue that our ancestors shouldn’t be returned home because they “weren’t appropriate places for human remains”, we would simply tell them, in the politest of terms, to go f$ck themselves. Which is also the appropriate response to the Navajo Nation’s current position. You don’t get to tell other people that their funeral practices are wrong, and they of all people should know that, after having fought against people saying that for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/83 "2024-01-10T03:02:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > One would think the idea of “leaving human remains on the moon” is something that should be a matter of public debate It should? Why on Earth (or off it) should it? Things that affect the public interest should be a matter of public debate, and this is so immaterial that it has no impact on the public’s wellbeing. Astronaut David Scott left a bible when he was on the moon. Astronaut Alan Shepherd left golf balls. Should those decisions have been brought to the public, too? What about all the shit and piss packets the astronauts left up there? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/84 "2024-01-10T03:04:36Z")
Some day, people might live on the moon. At that time, those people would have the right to object to ashes being left on their doorstep. Until then, it’s pretty silly. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/85 "2024-01-10T03:06:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But trouble in space means the Navajo (well, those of them who care) can breath easy, for now: I like this Navajo god that can pwn NASA. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/86 "2024-01-10T03:08:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Considered dispassionately, it’s at least as silly and superstitious to believe that putting corpse remains on the moon is a rationally justifiable and worthwhile endeavor as it is to believe that the sacredness of the moon makes it inappropriate to put corpse remains there. Exactly. This is what I’ve been saying. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > This is not a case where we balance one party’s irrational beliefs against another’s. It’s a case where people should be allowed to do things _for any reason_ as long as they don’t cause harm. Maybe you should ask the Navajo Nation whether this causes harm. As I already illustrated with examples, the concept of “harm” can be subjective and complicated and that’s why the nature of our laws is the subject of endless debate. If this lunar burial thing offended, say, mainstream Christianity, you can damn well bet the outcome would have been different. > [@Miller](#): > > They’re happy to launch cremains into space, so long as they get paid. I expect they would be equally happy to launch whatever religious payload the Navajo Nation wants boosted into orbit, should the Navajo Nation decide that’s something they want - again, so long as they’re willing to pay. “We’re not going to refuse one customer, because their religious beliefs offend some third party’s religious beliefs,” is not remotely in the same statement as, “We agree with this customer’s religious beliefs.” This logic is fine when applied, say, to the infamous case of a cake maker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding. In that case they’re discriminating against one customer while routinely providing the same everyday service to others, and moreover, are discriminating against a protected class. Celestis, OTOH, exists for the express purpose of sending cremains into space, I believe mostly into low earth orbit, but also to the moon as a novel and completely pointless exercise for the emotional gratification of a few rich folks. The question at hand – which I don’t pretend to have the wisdom to answer – is whether or not that particular aspect of their service should be legally restricted. But I think we all know that it would be if the objections came from a more politically influential faction than Navajo Nation. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/87 "2024-01-10T03:12:37Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > If it just so happened that the moon had been a revered sacred object throughout 2000 years of Christianity, rather than a belief of the Navajo Nation, do you think > > No need to ask “if”…Because this actually happened. > Ask Galileo > > For hundreds of years, the moon was part of the sacred cosmology of the Church. (believing that the,earth was the center of the universe.) > > Galileo only looked at it, and was jailed. Imagine if, instead of inventing the telescope, Galileo had somehow invented a spaceship. He would not have been allowed to land on the moon I’m reminded of the Arthur C. Clarke novel _Prelude To Space_. Among other plot elements, a crackpot fanatic tries to sabotage the first moon rocket because he believes in the literal truth of the Ptolemaic system, and is certain that corporeally going to the Moon will amount to an invasion of the Heavens, sparking a Babel-like backlash against humanity. For his trouble, he ends up receiving a lethal dose of radiation from the ship’s atomic engine; demonstrating that he understood as little about nuclear physics as he did about astronomy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/88 "2024-01-10T03:13:29Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If this lunar burial thing offended, say, mainstream Christianity, you can damn well bet the outcome would have been different. And _that would be wrong_. The answer to Christianity’s historic chokehold on Western society is not to let all the other religions take turns choking us out. > [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > Considered dispassionately, it’s at least as silly and superstitious to believe that putting corpse remains on the moon is a rationally justifiable and worthwhile endeavor as it is to believe that the sacredness of the moon makes it inappropriate to put corpse remains there. > > Exactly. This is what I’ve been saying. I have no idea why either of you think that we are saying that putting corpse remains on the moon is rationally justifiable. Of _course_ it isn’t. It’s a tremendous waste of money. It’s utterly _stupid_. People should be allowed to do stupid irrational things if it doesn’t hurt anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/89 "2024-01-10T03:14:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You don’t get to tell other people that their funeral practices are wrong Mmmmh, you definitely don’t get to tell other people that their funeral practices are wrong on sites that they have exclusive authority over, especially ones that are recognized as significant in their cultural heritage. I think the Navajos’ underlying question here may be more along the lines of why US actions regarding the moon should default to acceptance of mainstream white American beliefs on acceptable funerary practices. Isn’t the United States of America the representative of, and responsible to, its Native citizens as well as its white ones? Why do the default assumptions of white culture get to call all the (moon) shots? This is reminding me quite a bit of some controversies in other parts of the world about whether it’s okay, for example, [for hikers and mountaineers to climb summits that are considered sacred spaces in indigenous peoples’ ancestral tribal lands.](https://www.noemamag.com/the-fight-for-australias-mountains/) > [@](#): > > As such, the hikers believe that comparisons of the mountain to traditional sites of worship are misleading. “I wouldn’t climb a church … and I’d take my shoes off before entering a temple,” echoes climber Andrew Flanagan, who started a Facebook activist group entitled “Oh the Places You Can’t Go,” after another sacred peak — Mt. Wollumbin (Warning) in New South Wales — was permanently shut off to climbing in late 2022. “But those are structures that have specifically been made for that purpose. These mountains? They were here 23 million years ago — before humans were even on the planet.” > > Their sentiments are not novel. This distinction between natural and created sites — with the former viewed as _de facto_ public spaces and the latter private areas that confer ownership — is foundational to Western political thought and the West’s subjugation of Indigenous lands. It is definitely a preconceived assumption of modern mainstream (I don’t know that it’s valid to call it specifically “western” or “white” anymore) mindsets that “natural” sites are by default open for anybody who can legally access them to do whatever they want in them, subject to minimal regulation deemed necessary to prevent personal or environmental harm, by some definition of “harm”. But that assumption isn’t necessarily, intrinsically more valid than the assumption in some other forms of worldview that particular natural sites that have certain kinds of emotional significance to indigenous cultures—even if representatives of those cultures don’t legally own the physical terrain in question—should just be left alone. Or at least, should be protected from certain specific acts that those cultures traditionally consider offensive desecration. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/90 "2024-01-10T03:14:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which is also the appropriate response to the Navajo Nation’s current position. …It’s literally what they got here. But I’d argue that _wasn’t_ appropriate. > [@Chronos](#): > > You don’t get to tell other people that their funeral practices are wrong, and they of all people should know that, after having fought against people saying that for decades. People _do_ get to say that their funeral practices are wrong, actually. You can’t bury your aunty in the backyard. You can’t spread her ashes at the beach. You can’t cremate her on your BBQ. There are all _sorts_ of restrictions on burial practices. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/91 "2024-01-10T03:17:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Only because the government has already “stepped in” on behalf of the other side, right? I’m not aware of any attempt by Celestis to have the government force a religious observance on the Navajo Nation, so no, I don’t think that’s right. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > One would think the idea of “leaving human remains on the moon” is something that should be a matter of public debate, and _not_ left until the rocket is literally on the launchpad. I’m generally opposed to allowing public votes on acceptable religious observances. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/92 "2024-01-10T03:17:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This is reminding me quite a bit of some controversies in other parts of the world about whether it’s okay, for example, [for hikers and mountaineers to climb summits that are considered sacred spaces in indigenous peoples’ ancestral tribal lands.](https://www.noemamag.com/the-fight-for-australias-mountains/) The difference is right there in your own sentence. Do you see it? These mountains belong, in some sense, to these native peoples. Because they are within their traditional tribal territory. Last time I checked, the moon was not ancestral Navaho land. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/93 "2024-01-10T03:18:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > sweeping generalizations My position is not a sweeping generalization so much as the way things actually work in western civilization the vast majority of the time. Again, basic principles like that laws are prohibitions rather than allowances, or the idea of legal standing. In the US, some things are so bedrock that we have _laws that say you can’t make other laws_ that restrict certain things. I honestly wonder how you perceive the world if this isn’t your starting point. Does every action that you don’t specifically know to be legal give you anxiety? Are you constantly concerned that parties that you cannot affect in any measurable way might nevertheless have a legitimate claim against your actions? As I acknowledged above, yes, there is some complexity when it comes to defining harm, and we have laws against things that don’t directly cause harm but are correlated with it, as well as laws that address harm that might be small on an individual level but great when added up. Nevertheless, one thing we can safely say is that general offense, or violation of spiritual beliefs, is not included in these things. Blasphemy is protected speech (yes, some states still have laws on the books, but they’re all unconstitutional). Can you think of _any_ case where someone successfully argued that a legal remedy is justified because their beliefs were somehow violated? I don’t mean a case where they were prevented/forced to do something they didn’t want to. I mean a case like this one, where a distant third party did something that had no measurable effect on them except that it somehow violated their spiritual beliefs. > [@Kimstu](#): > > AIUI, all space launches are licensed by some government entity? Yes, and the only thing they should have to show is that they meet all safety, communications, etc. requirements. If the license is rejected for reasons aside from those, they should be sued for discrimination. We certainly never had to justify the existence of our cubesat. If we meet the FCC, etc. requirements, then we get to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/94 "2024-01-10T03:20:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m generally opposed to allowing public votes on acceptable religious observances. …thats kinda unavoidable. Especially in the United States. Everything, from abortion to marriage, is effectively a “public votes on acceptable religious observances.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/95 "2024-01-10T03:24:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > These mountains belong, in some sense, to these native peoples. Because they are within their traditional tribal territory. > > Last time I checked, the moon was not ancestral Navaho land. Again, that’s a pretty culturally specific default assumption: “if you physically own it, it belongs to you and you get to say what can be done on it, but if you don’t, its traditional significance in your culture can be legitimately ignored.” I’m not claiming that it’s automatically wrong to have such an assumption in one’s cultural worldview. I’m just saying that it’s not obviously, objectively more right than other possible cultural assumptions about who is entitled to do what where. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/96 "2024-01-10T03:25:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …thats kinda unavoidable. Especially in the United States. Everything, from abortion to marriage, is effectively a “public votes on acceptable religious observances.” I just want to note that it was you who associated the Navajo Nation with anti-abortionists and homophobes, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/97 "2024-01-10T03:28:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I just want to note that it was you who associated the Navajo Nation with anti-abortionists and homophobes, not me. …I just wanted to note that _I didn’t do this at all_, and that this is disingenuous framing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/98 "2024-01-10T03:29:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Again, that’s a pretty culturally specific default assumption: “if you physically own it, it belongs to you and you get to say what can be done on it, but if you don’t, its traditional significance in your culture can be legitimately ignored.” He said “belong in some sense,” not “physically own it,” specifically to make allowances for cases where native tribes _don’t_ physically own the geography in question, but should still have input to what happens with it. So that paraphrase seems really off base to me. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/99 "2024-01-10T03:29:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > If this lunar burial thing offended, say, mainstream Christianity, you can damn well bet the outcome would have been different. > > And _that would be wrong_. > > The answer to Christianity’s historic chokehold on Western society is not to let all the other religions take turns choking us out. That was meant to illustrate the fact that the Navajo concerns are being ignored because they’re coming from an entity that’s not politically influential. Separately from that, I think there’s merit in extending and properly ratifying **[the Moon Treaty](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Treaty)** so that it has force in international law, and prevents this kind of frivolous profiteering nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/100 "2024-01-10T03:31:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not aware of any attempt by Celestis to have the government force a religious observance on the Navajo Nation, so no, I don’t think that’s right. You misunderstand me (again). I’m saying that the US government has already, automatically, defaulted to permitting use of the moon for funerary practices that white American culture traditionally considers acceptable. The government has effectively declared that Celestis’s proposed use of the moon to deposit corpse remains is okay, because the government is working from the basic assumptions within white American culture that putting (appropriately sanitized) corpse remains in any physical location that isn’t officially owned by somebody else is okay. But, as I’ve remarked more than once, that’s not the only possible or reasonable way to look at the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=6)