# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/121 "2024-01-10T04:21:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My response to the idea that this is only “about one side” is that this isn’t only about one side. Yeah, but, see, I don’t care. My interest here is that the government shouldn’t be basing legislation on someone’s religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/122 "2024-01-10T04:26:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh no! You’ve exposed me as using a consistent philosophical framework to solve ethical and moral issues! Well, the issue is when you assume that consistency of a framework with its own culturally specific axioms is the only thing that needs to be considered or acknowledged. Like, it’s very hard to explain non-Euclidean geometry to somebody who’s absolutely convinced that the parallel postulate must be true, because look, all of Euclidean geometry is consistent with it! > [@Riemann](#): > > No, there’s a much more straighforward asymmetry that doesn’t depend on any cultural privilege. Celestis is not telling the Navajo _they_ should not do something because it offends Celestis. ? Aren’t most controversies like that? One party objects to the action of another. It seems pretty rare that two parties are each simultaneously and equally taking an action that the other one objects to. > [@Riemann](#): > > Imagine that two religions both hold Jerusalem sacred. One set of believers says that they have no problem with adherents of the other religion being present, that they have no problem sharing. The other set of believers says it is a deeply offensive violation of their beliefs for the other to be present, that it “harms” them to share. Should the tolerant and intolerant beliefs be given equal consideration? Huh? How can you say that that asymmetry “doesn’t depend on any cultural privilege”? Obviously, your assignment of “tolerant” and “intolerant” in that scenario is based on the fact that you have by default privileged the view that the sacred locale should be shared. Without that underlying default assumption, I cannot tell which of those two particular religious superstitions should prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/123 "2024-01-10T04:31:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My interest here is that the government shouldn’t be basing legislation on someone’s religious beliefs. …and as I said: thats kinda unavoidable. Especially in the United States. Everything, from abortion to marriage, is effectively a “public votes on acceptable religious observances.” And that isn’t changing. America is indoctrinated. Religion drives everything. It’s an essential, fundamental part of the American identity. And the domination of the Supreme Court and the lack-of-ability to do anything about it means that as bad as everything is right now, its going to get so-much-worse. Which is why I find the amount of energy expended on this, a minor blip in the grand scale of things, a largely empty gesture that was always doomed to fail, so puzzling. Your country is about to be overrun by religious zealots. Letting the Navajo Nation speak for a few minutes isn’t going to harm anyone. This isn’t some great principled issue. Its a sideshow. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/124 "2024-01-10T04:43:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ? Aren’t most controversies like that? One party objects to the action of another. It seems pretty rare that two parties are each simultaneously and equally taking an action that the other one objects to. Sure, but they are then adjudicated based on an assessment of whether one party really is objectively harming the other. Here the claimed harms is not objectively real, it is a subjective mental state deriving from superstition, and the fact that one party is being “harmed” derives only from the fact that their superstition is _less tolerant_ than the other. If you are going to give this kind of “harm” the same consideration as objective harm, then the less tolerant belief system always wins. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/125 "2024-01-10T04:44:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > At some point we take our fresh perspective back down to Earth, hopefully taking what we learned into account and adjusting our stance accordingly. Let’s hope so. > [@Miller](#): > > My interest here is that the government shouldn’t be basing legislation on someone’s religious beliefs. Well, except it already is. The US government defaults to assuming that putting cremains on the moon is okay—and regulates moon mission authorization accordingly—because mainstream white Christian culture is okay with putting cremains in (legally accessed) natural spaces. And the US government inherits its cultural assumptions from mainstream white Christian culture. Which, y’know, in terms of historical reality is to some degree unavoidable. But let’s not be naive enough to imagine that it’s only “the other side” that is expecting “special treatment” for its superstition preferences here. It’s just that the superstition preferences of mainstream culture are to a large extent pre-baked into the system. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/126 "2024-01-10T04:45:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Letting the Navajo Nation speak for a few minutes isn’t going to harm anyone. What are you _talking_ about? Not a _single person_ said that the Navajo should not be allowed to speak about this. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/127 "2024-01-10T04:49:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Which is why I find the amount of energy expended on this, a minor blip in the grand scale of things, a largely empty gesture that was always doomed to fail, so puzzling. Your country is about to be overrun by religious zealots. Letting the Navajo Nation speak for a few minutes isn’t going to harm anyone. This isn’t some great principled issue. Its a sideshow. Believe me, I am well aware of the rising tide of theocracy in the US. Which is why it needs to be opposed at literally every level. US law is heavily precedent-based, and any legal exception made on the basis of religious belief can and will be ruthlessly exploited by the larger Christian Dominionist movement. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, the issue is when you assume that consistency of a framework with its own culturally specific axioms is the only thing that needs to be considered or acknowledged. That’s not remotely an issue. I’m aware that my moral framework is culturally influenced. I’m aware that there are other moral frameworks out there. My value system is still the best value system I could find, to the extent that I’m able to make moral and ethical determinations. Neither of these are things that I need to be explicitly explained to me, and it’s kind of insulting that you assumed I do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/128 "2024-01-10T04:53:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The US government defaults to assuming that putting cremains on the moon is okay—and regulates moon mission authorization accordingly—because mainstream white Christian culture is okay with putting cremains in (legally accessed) natural spaces. The US government is defaulting - perhaps for one of the last times in American history - to the position that what sort of religious observances are acceptable is _not the fucking government’s business_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/129 "2024-01-10T05:00:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The US government defaults to assuming that putting cremains on the moon is okay—and regulates moon mission authorization accordingly—because mainstream white Christian culture is okay with putting cremains in (legally accessed) natural spaces. Where do you get this? The article says the opposite: > The Federal Aviation Administration’s Office of Commercial Space Transportation is responsible for licensing all private space launches in the US. But by law, the office only has oversight in matters involving “the public health and safety, safety of property, and national security and foreign policy interests of the United States.” > > “The Federal Aviation Administration’s role is statutorily limited to ensuring space flights do not pose a safety or national security threat to the United States,” a Department of Transportation spokesperson told CNN. If there’s no safety or security issue, it’s not the FAA’s problem. As it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/130 "2024-01-10T05:27:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Believe me, I am well aware of the rising tide of theocracy in the US. Which is why it needs to be opposed at literally every level. …but what are you really opposed to here? That the Navajo Nation managed to have a meeting with the White House? This is _barely_ a story. You’ve framed this about religion. But for me, as an indigenous person, it’s about _indigenous voices being heard_. Let them have their say. We all know that the government were _never going to do anything about it_. They were never going to stop a multi-million dollar project like this over the concerns of Native Americans. They’ve never really had a voice. That wasn’t going to start now. They deserve at least that much. > [@Miller](#): > > US law is heavily precedent-based, and any legal exception made on the basis of religious belief can and will be ruthlessly exploited by the larger Christian Dominionist movement. LOL. That shipped sailed long ago. This was never going to change that. Granting Navajo an audience, listening to what they had to say, is the very _least_ the White House could do. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/131 "2024-01-10T05:35:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If there’s no safety or security issue, it’s not the FAA’s problem. You’re quite right that the commercial payload providers legally have a free hand to choose their launch payloads, subject to safety concerns, and that the federal government doesn’t regulate (AFAICT) the disposal of cremains. The fact that the federal government doesn’t restrict the disposal of cremains is kind of my point: it defaults to acceptable because mainstream Christian culture was okay with it. (Compare, for example, the history of federal regulation of things that mainstream Christian culture has been less okay with, such as pornography and nudity. Alcohol too, but that involves potential direct physical harm in ways that the others don’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/132 "2024-01-10T05:45:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is _barely_ a story. You’ve framed this about religion. But for me, as an indigenous person, it’s about _indigenous voices being heard_. Let them have their say. > > We all know that the government were _never going to do anything about it_. Despite, apparently, [previously making a promise to take such concerns into consideration:](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/1998/jan/15/navajos-upset-after-ashes-sent-to-moon-nasa/) > [@](#): > > NASA will consult with American Indians before it rockets any more human ashes to the moon, a spokeswoman for the space agency pledged this week. [Jan. 1998] […] > > NASA meant no disrespect, said Peggy Wilhide, the agency’s director of public affairs. > > “None of the scientists on the program were aware that this would be insensitive,” she said in apologizing on behalf of NASA. > > “I give my commitment that if we ever discuss doing something like this again, we will consult more widely and we will consult with Native Americans.” To be fair, I don’t know how binding such a statement on the part of a NASA director of public affairs may be \>25 years later, nor to what extent Commercial Space Act legislation would even allow payload decisions to be guided by such consultation. But there seems to be no doubt that NASA in 1998 thought this was an act that warranted an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/133 "2024-01-10T05:50:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but what are you really opposed to here? I’m opposed to the government making legislative decisions based on religious belief. I feel like I’ve been pretty explicit about that. > [@](#): > > That the Navajo Nation managed to have a meeting with the White House? No, I’m opposed to the idea that the government should base legislation on religious belief. > [@](#): > > This is _barely_ a story. You’ve framed this about religion. But for me, as an indigenous person, it’s about _indigenous voices being heard_. Let them have their say. For me, as a queer person who actually lives in America, its about the government not legislating what sort of religious observances are acceptable. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Granting Navajo an audience, listening to what they had to say, is the very _least_ the White House could do. Listen to them? Sure. Just so long as they don’t actually do what they want, at least on this issue, because it’s absolutely vital that the government not base legislation on religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/134 "2024-01-10T05:58:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The fact that the federal government doesn’t restrict the disposal of cremains is kind of my point: it defaults to acceptable because mainstream Christian culture was okay with it Or, you could just take it at face value, which is that there’s no restriction unless there’s a safety or security issue. Unless you know of a payload that was denied because it didn’t conform to mainstream Christian values. Yes, yes, we still have _other_ laws on the books that are undoubtedly Christian in origin. Most get knocked down as soon as they face the courts. Don’t ask me to defend those. They have nothing to do with the case at hand here. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But there seems to be no doubt that NASA in 1998 thought this was an act that warranted an apology. This wasn’t a NASA launch. They paid for the bulk of it, but there were other payloads, and NASA was not involved with the human remains payloads. Even aside from it being 25 years later, it isn’t the same situation as before. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/135 "2024-01-10T06:09:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But for me, as an indigenous person, it’s about _indigenous voices being heard_. Let them have their say. What does “let them have their say” mean here? Because of who they are _pretend_ that what they are saying has merit, when you don’t believe it does? That’s more than a little patronizing. And I wonder to what extent Buu Nygren has let his own people have their say. You seem to be taking it for granted that he’s speaking for the whole Navajo Nation here, but I’m extremely skeptical that most Navajo could give a shit about tiny capsules of bone on the Moon. Maybe they’d prefer that the voice of their nation be heard about issues more substantial and pressing than traditional superstitions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/136 "2024-01-10T06:28:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m opposed to the government making legislative decisions based on religious belief. …well they didn’t here. > [@Miller](#): > > No, I’m opposed to the idea that the government should base legislation on religious belief. Well they didn’t here. But you don’t have any objection to listening to what Navajo have to say? > [@Miller](#): > > For me, as a queer person who actually lives in America, its about the government not legislating what sort of religious observances are acceptable. Merely _listening_ to Navajo has no impact on that at all. > [@Miller](#): > > Listen to them? Sure. And thats _all_ that happened here. > [@Miller](#): > > Just so long as they don’t actually do what they want, at least on this issue, because it’s absolutely vital that the government not base legislation on religious belief. I mean, of course it’s _vital_. But it’s already game over. You’ve lost. It’s done. And it’s been done for longer than I’ve been on this planet. This one, single, utterly insignificant thing isn’t going to make one iota of difference. It’s probably something that happens all of the time, it’s just that news agencies decided this time to turn it into something more than it isn’t. Lets not pretend that religious lobby groups and corporations aren’t lobbying the White House _all of the time_. Its just that this time it was an indigenous group, and for the media, they are low hanging fruit. > [@Riemann](#): > > What does “let them have their say” mean here? Because of who they are _pretend_ that what they are saying has merit, when you don’t believe it does? That’s more than a little patronizing. “Let them have their say” literally means what it says. They spoke out. The White House chose to listen. End of story. > [@Riemann](#): > > You seem to be taking it for granted that he’s speaking for the whole Navajo Nation here, but I’m extremely skeptical that most Navajo could give a shit about tiny capsules of bone on the Moon. This entire thread is predicated on this particular point. The thread title. The article cited in the OP. Most of the arguments in this thread. I’m as sceptical as you are that this is something that deserved any news coverage at all, let alone a Great Debate. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/137 "2024-01-10T06:56:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “Let them have their say” literally means what it says. They spoke out. The White House chose to listen. End of story. The literal meaning is an imperative, hence my question about what you think should have happened that didn’t. Nothing then I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/138 "2024-01-10T07:01:24Z")
Sounds like one key question is whether the very act of “letting someone have their say” inherently promises a nonzero chance (not obligation, chance) of taking action based on what is said to you. If you believe that all religious and spiritual beliefs, regardless of popularity, source, or tradition, is nonsense, then I can see how you might get to believing just the invitation constitutes a willingness to act based on the other’s beliefs. I’m just not sure it’s anything more than an intellectual exercise, based on the reality we have. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/139 "2024-01-10T07:03:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But you don’t have any objection to listening to what Navajo have to say? My objection is purely to the content of their request, which is, in my view, an unethical demand that the government enforce their religious views. I have no objection to the Navajo Nation exercising their right of free speech, or their right to petition their elected representative. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean, of course it’s _vital_. > > But it’s already game over. It’s vital, but it’s also hopeless? Pick a lane. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/140 "2024-01-10T07:23:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My objection is purely to the content of their request, which is, in my view, an unethical demand that the government enforce their religious views. …an _unethical_ “demand”? Who decided that? When did we, as society, impose ethical limits on what marginalised groups could _ask for_? > [@Miller](#): > > I have no objection to the Navajo Nation exercising their right of free speech, or their right to petition their elected representative. And that’s all that happened here. There is nothing unethical about the Navajo Nation exercising their right of free speech. There is nothing unethical about petitioning their elected representative. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s vital, but it’s also hopeless? In America? Yeah, I think it’s pretty much hopeless. And I’m rapidly running out of hope for the rest of the world at the moment, to be quite frank. It’s vital that people don’t stop fighting, though. And part of that is picking the right battles. And this really isn’t a battle that needs to be fought. “Stop marginalised folk asking for things unethically” really wouldn’t be on my list of top ten list of things to stop the rise of fascism. > [@Riemann](#): > > The literal meaning is an imperative, hence my question about what you think should have happened that didn’t. Nothing then I guess. What I’d like is for indigenous peoples of the world to stop being treated like shit, for people to stop stealing their land, for people to stop killing them. But I’ll settle for small victories right now. And having the decency of granting them an audience doesn’t seem to be the worst thing in the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=8)