# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/141 "2024-01-10T07:29:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who decided that? Me. I did. I think asking the government to enforce religious doctrine is inherently unethical. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s vital that people don’t stop fighting, though. If it’s hopeless, what’s the point? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And part of that is picking the right battles. And this really isn’t a battle that needs to be fought. “Stop marginalised folk asking for things unethically” really wouldn’t be on my list of top ten list of things to stop the rise of fascism. I don’t really need your input on which battles I need to fight to protect my own rights. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What I’d like is for indigenous peoples of the world to stop being treated like shit, for people to stop stealing their land, for people to stop killing them. I’d like for theists to stop trying to impose their beliefs on people who don’t share their religion. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/142 "2024-01-10T07:45:54Z")
It’s arguably possible for the meeting to have been arranged with positive intent even if everyone in the government knew for a stone cold fact already that they weren’t going to do anything about it no matter what they heard at the meeting. It could’ve been a signal of “we are willing to hear the concerns of Native culture (which we tried to destroy)” - culture, not necessarily religion in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/143 "2024-01-10T09:12:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Me. I did. I think asking the government to enforce religious doctrine is inherently unethical. …well, I think _asking_ the government to do something is the democratic right of its citizens. > [@Miller](#): > > If it’s hopeless, what’s the point? :: shrugs :: Feel free to give up then. Most other Americans already have. I’ll keep fighting, though. > [@Miller](#): > > I don’t really need your input on which battles I need to fight to protect my own rights. Unfortunately, we are in Great Debates. You get my input, whether you like it or not. > [@Miller](#): > > I’d like for theists to stop trying to impose their beliefs on people who don’t share their religion. And I’d like capitalists to stop monetizing things like the fucking moon, and I thank the Navajo Nation for bringing this to our attention. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/144 "2024-01-10T14:36:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I’d like capitalists to stop monetizing things like the fucking moon, And _I_ would like for the human species to spread out to the moon rather than worshipping it. And if that means that parts of the moon get (brace yourselves) _monetized_ (Dun dun DUNNN) that gets a big old shrug from me. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/145 "2024-01-10T14:41:14Z")
If we honored every religious belief and tradition of every religion in the world, we’d probably get nothing accomplished. So, the only fair alternative is to honor none of them in order to avoid any discrimination. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/146 "2024-01-10T14:45:14Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > So, the only fair alternative is to honor none of them in order to avoid any discrimination We can certainly “honor” peoples’ religious beliefs in making accommodations for people of various faiths to go about their lives without their religious requirements preventing them from participating in social and public life. Letting any religious group claim dominion over _the entire fucking moon_ is a bit much, though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/147 "2024-01-10T15:53:47Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well, I think _asking_ the government to do something is the democratic right of its citizens Straw man. The issue isn’t whether they have the right to ask the government to do something - literally not a single person has said the Navajo Nation should not have the right to petition the government, the issue is entirely about the specific thing the Navajo Nation wants the government to do. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Feel free to give up then. Most other Americans already have. > > I’ll keep fighting, though. I _am_ fighting. You’re the one saying it’s hopeless, and you’re the one telling me to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/148 "2024-01-10T16:08:13Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/149 "2024-01-10T16:08:49Z")
This reminds me of an early episode of Babylon 5. EarthGov decided to have a time to honor all the religious beliefs of its visitors. One guy wanted to come onto the station with this huge knife and Mr. Garibaldi told him he couldn’t. This guy( alien) said “nothing will come between me and the blade!” So he was told it would be fixed to the outside of the station, and if he could get it the knife would be allowed. Mr Garibaldi later remarked that rather than work this event he’d rather have his gums extracted. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/150 "2024-01-10T21:29:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Straw man. …not a strawman. > [@Miller](#): > > The issue isn’t whether they have the right to ask the government to do something Of course it is. They are allowed to ask, even if you consider the ask to be “unethical.” > [@Miller](#): > > literally not a single person has said the Navajo Nation should not have the right to petition the government, the issue is entirely about the specific thing the Navajo Nation wants the government to do. The government said _no_. What else did you want to happen here? What’s the debate? That the White House shouldn’t have engaged with Navajo in the first place? That Navajo should have made an “unethical demand?” > [@Miller](#): > > I _am_ fighting. You’re the one saying it’s hopeless, and you’re the one telling me to stop. I think it is hopeless. The “left-leaning” President is literally funding a genocide of indigenous people right now, yet the issue of the day is indigenous people objecting to leaving human remains on the moon. It’s hard to have any hope, witnessing this happening in real time. Indigenous people have had their lands stolen, people are getting slaughtered, it’s happening right now, but this absolutely non-story is treated as if it’s a genuine threat to democracy. I can’t stress this enough: this _isn’t_ a threat to democracy. This story is _barely_ about religion. It should be a story about the commercialisation of space, it should be about multinational agreements that were signed with barely any public input, there are so many different ways this story could have been framed. This could have been an opportunity to learn more about Navajo cosmology. In NZ we have Mātauranga Māori. > [@](#): > > Early Māori culture was based on oral lore and had a justice system based on chiefs and tohunga (the knowledge experts). Such experts were chosen from an early age and educated within wānanga (learning institutions) to remember vast amounts of knowledge. The knowledge of the hapū (tribe) and iwi were entrusted to these experts, who would then pass their knowledge on to future experts. The way to memorise such a volume of complex material involved using a whakapapa (genealogical) framework. Whakapapa is used to explain genealogies and taxonomies, to create categories and families of flora and fauna and to describe environmental and life issues. > **[Mātauranga Māori and science](https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/2545-matauranga-maori-and-science)** > > Mātauranga Māori is a modern term for the combined knowledge of Polynesian ancestors and the experiences of Māori living in the environment of Aotearoa. The term takes many forms, such as language (te reo), education (mātauranga), traditional... It isn’t about teaching religion. It’s a _framework_ for understanding. It teaches largely through story and metaphor. And as I’m reading more about Navajo cosmology this morning, I’m seeing much the same thing. There are a couple of videos here that I’ve just started watching if you want to know more. [https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/navajo-understanding-eclipses](https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/navajo-understanding-eclipses) I think multiple things are true here. I think it was perfectly fine for the Navajo Nation to object, and I also think the government were correct to say no. I also think that the further commercialisation of the moon, in particular what is and isn’t allowed under the accords, should come under much closer scrutiny and that this is the bigger story here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/151 "2024-01-10T21:53:53Z")
It’s not about privileging the beliefs of white American Christians. Lots of white American Christians object to all sorts of Navajo religious practices, and think they should be banned. But the government lets the Navajo carry on those religious practices, because it’s none of those white American Christians’ business what the Navajo do. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/152 "2024-01-10T21:54:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This could have been an opportunity to learn more about Navajo cosmology. In NZ we have Mātauranga Māori. Why should anyone care besides the Navajo? There are hundreds of bullshit cosmologies out there. None have anything to offer in a scientific sense. While I don’t know the situation on the ground, it appears that people in New Zealand have been trying to poison science classes with Mātauranga Māori nonsense. The US has largely survived the push for “Intelligent Design”, which was of course just a front for Christian creationism. Why should New Zealand treat Mātauranga Māori any differently? Put it in your social studies classes if you like; leave it out of science classes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/153 "2024-01-10T22:06:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …not a strawman. It’s 100% pure straw. “Should they have the right to petition the government,” has never been questioned by anyone in this debate, until you injected it. It’s absolutely immaterial to any discussion going on here. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What’s the debate? The debate is whether its proper to ask the government to legislate what people are allowed to do based on their personal religious beliefs. Which, I swear I must have mentioned once or twice in this thread already. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think it is hopeless. Then why should we keep fighting? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The “left-leaning” President is literally funding a genocide of indigenous people right now, yet the issue of the day is indigenous people objecting to leaving human remains on the moon. You understand that people can talk and think about two different things at the same time, right? Discussing this issue does not preclude discussing the Israel-Gaza war, and in fact, there’s multiple threads where you can drag this absolutely irrelevant hijack instead of clogging up this thread with it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This could have been an opportunity to learn more about Navajo cosmology. If it was about learning about Navajo cosmology, they should have been talking with the Department of Education, not NASA. This was 100% about enforcing private religious beliefs on the public at large. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/154 "2024-01-10T22:07:08Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The US has largely survived the push for “Intelligent Design”, which was of course just a front for Christian creationism Don’t hold your breath. They will find a new cover story for it any day now. > > Why should New Zealand treat Mātauranga Māori any differently?\<\< Let’s put it to the test. Use it as the basis for engineering projects. Just not where they affect my safety though, please… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/155 "2024-01-10T22:09:54Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Don’t hold your breath. They will find a new cover story for it any day now. Don’t worry, I’m not under any illusions that the fight is over for good. But ID does seem to have lost pretty comprehensively. I’ll take that win for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/156 "2024-01-10T22:14:39Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Just not where they affect my safety though, please… Don’t worry, whether you are alive or dead is a social construct. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/157 "2024-01-10T22:33:32Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Why should anyone care besides the Navajo? …you _don’t_ have to care. Problem solved. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > While I don’t know the situation on the ground, it appears that people in New Zealand have been trying to poison science classes with Mātauranga Māori nonsense. Not nonsense. And no, you don’t know the situation on the ground, so unless you are prepared to do some deeper research here, there really isn’t anything more to discuss. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s 100% pure straw. It 100% is not. > [@Miller](#): > > “Should they have the right to petition the government,” has never been questioned by anyone in this debate, until you injected it. It’s absolutely immaterial to any discussion going on here. Yeah, but: > [@Miller](#): > > The debate is whether its proper to ask the government to legislate what people are allowed to do based on their personal religious beliefs. What does “proper” mean in this context? If people are allowed to “ask the government to legislate what people are allowed to do based on their personal religious beliefs”, then how is it not proper to exercise that right? > [@Miller](#): > > Then why should we keep fighting? Because what other choice do we have? I’m fighting. But I’ve largely given up. I’m 50. I can barely walk. My health is bad. We’ve just voted in a right-wing government that immediately went to work to make my life even more miserable, and I’m just doing my best to stay _alive_ at the moment. I’m not sure how successful I will be. > [@Miller](#): > > You understand that people can talk and think about two different things at the same time, right? Sure. > [@Miller](#): > > Discussing this issue does not preclude discussing the Israel-Gaza war, and in fact, there’s multiple threads where you can drag this absolutely irrelevant hijack instead of clogging up this thread with it. I think it clearly shows where people’s priorities lie. That one of the only threads on these boards that tackles indigenous issues at all is about how the Navajo Nation should just “shut up” and know their place. Everybody else gets to lobby. Everybody else gets to enforce their private religious beliefs on the public at large. It happens at _every level of governance_ in America. But this? This is where you draw the line. > [@Miller](#): > > If it was about learning about Navajo cosmology, they should have been talking with the Department of Education, not NASA. I think when it comes to cosmology, its perfectly fine to talk to both Department of Education AND NASA. > [@Miller](#): > > This was 100% about enforcing private religious beliefs on the public at large. I didn’t know that the public at large were able to send human remains to the moon. That appears to be in the domain of an extremely privileged few. > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Let’s put it to the test. Use it as the basis for engineering projects. > Just not where they affect my safety though, please… > **[LibGuides: Engineering: Mātauranga Māori and Engineering](https://libguides.wintec.ac.nz/engineering/MataurangaMaori)** > > A one-stop-shop of Engineering resources > **[Embracing Mātauranga and Kaupapa Māori | Engineering New Zealand](https://www.engineeringnz.org/news-insights/embracing-m%C4%81tauranga-and-kaupapa-m%C4%81ori/)** > > Mātauranga and kaupapa Māori are taking their rightful place in engineering. We talk to Dr Panos Patros about how software engineering is truly embracing these concepts and intending to prove through evidence-based research how they can strengthen... > **[Mātauranga Māori - HERA](https://www.hera.org.nz/matauranga-maori/)** > > HERA is focused on Industry 4.0 - because today’s businesses have to embrace the uptake of smart technologies and data to stay relevant. > **[Mātauranga Māori in Power Engineering - Achieving sustainability and zero...](https://resiliencechallenge.nz/outputs/matauranga-maori-in-power-engineering-achieving-sustainability-and-zero-carbon-futures-with-countries-indigenous-knowledge-in-design/)** [https://www.esr.cri.nz/home/about-esr/media-releases/maori-engineer-brings-matauranga-expertise-to-esr-strategic-science-panel/](https://www.esr.cri.nz/home/about-esr/media-releases/maori-engineer-brings-matauranga-expertise-to-esr-strategic-science-panel/) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/158 "2024-01-10T22:34:39Z")
Closed on January 10, 2024, 10:34pm UTC ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/159 "2024-01-10T22:38:15Z")
This post bringing in off-topic genocide claims and additional posts attacking other posters has earned you a **warning**. Take a 1 day break from this thread. That is an official instruction. **Moderating** ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/160 "2024-01-10T23:00:41Z")
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