# Navajo Nation Object to Leaving Human Remains on Moon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727 "2024-01-07T04:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/161 "2024-01-11T02:13:39Z")
Looks like the Peregrine won’t be making it to the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/162 "2024-01-11T06:18:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Lots of white American Christians object to all sorts of Navajo religious practices, and think they should be banned. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/163 "2024-01-11T06:21:55Z")
@Kimstu , I just want to chime in and say that at least to me your position and perspective were clear at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/164 "2024-01-11T12:48:08Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Such as? Peyote, for one? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/165 "2024-01-11T13:24:41Z")
The Navajo did _not_ use peyote in their _traditional_ religious practice and, in fact, their Tribal Council [outright banned it on their reservations](https://lawweb.colorado.edu/profiles/pubpdfs/carpenter/CarpenterICRAChapter2012.pdf) until suit was brought by the peyote-using syncretic pan-tribal Native American Church (although now the NAC is big there, I gather) - the Council won the case but subsequently decided to allow religious freedom anyway: > In _Native American Church v. Navajo Tribal Council_, plaintiffs challenged a Navajo Nation ordinance criminalizing peyote on the reservation. > The Native American Church is an intertribal indigenous religion whose practitioners ingest peyote as a sacrament.The legislation provided: > > > Whereas …use [of peyote] is not connected with any Navajo religious practices and is contradiction to the traditional ceremonies of the Navajo people:therefore be it resolved that as far as the Navajo people are concerned peyote is harmful and foreign to our traditional way of life: be it further resolved that the introduction into the Navajo country of the use of peyote by the Navajo people be stamped out and appropriate action be taken by the Tribal Courts to enforce this action. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/166 "2024-01-11T13:46:48Z")
I’m sure there are lots of fundies who object to any practice of any religion not their own particular sect of christianism. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/167 "2024-01-11T14:13:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People _do_ get to say that their funeral practices are wrong, actually. You can’t bury your aunty in the backyard. You can’t spread her ashes at the beach. You can’t cremate her on your BBQ. There are all _sorts_ of restrictions on burial practices. Most of the laws restricting funeral practices at least claim to be based on health and safety concerns. (Not only are dead bodies dangerous, but regulating the disposal of bodies makes it a little harder to hide a homicide.) Funerary laws in the US are actually in flux in many states, as new ways of disposing of bodies are legalized (look up “water cremation”) and more states are allowing families to bury their dead themselves. You can’t spread Aunty’s ashes on the beach because it falls afoul of general littering laws. But because the volume of ashes people want to scatter is quite small compared to the emotional impact it has on people, it’s actually incredibly common to scatter aunty’s ashes on the beach (or in national parks) and law authorities generally look the other way. I’m pretty sure it was here where I read a discussion about the practice, and a park ranger stopped the poster from talking more and basically said, “i don’t want to know”. > [@Kimstu](#): > > but it’s automatically ridiculous and unthinkable to consider Native tribes entitled to have input on “what happens” with lunar territory that they don’t physically own, but whose existence and nature is culturally significant to them? The issue is that the moon is culturally significant to pretty much every culture. I would argue that its cultural significance to a subset of US culture is why there are buyers for Celestis’s services. I think it’s appropriate that the US was willing to listen to the concerns of the Navajo Nation, because we are a democracy and the government should listen to its citizens. I also think it’s appropriate that the US then ignored those concerns, because we are a democracy and the concerns of a small minority that boiled down to a religious objection to other people doing stuff that has cultural importance to the other people shouldn’t be enshrined in government law or policy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/168 "2024-01-11T15:26:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Navajo did _not_ use peyote in their _traditional_ religious practice and, in fact, their Tribal Council [outright banned it on their reservations](https://lawweb.colorado.edu/profiles/pubpdfs/carpenter/CarpenterICRAChapter2012.pdf) until suit was brought by the peyote-using syncretic pan-tribal Native American Church (although now the NAC is big there, I gather) - the Council won the case but subsequently decided to allow religious freedom anyway: Thank you for the clarification. I had half remembered something along those lines (maybe from a video about the history of psychedelics or somethkng?) and tried to do some research specifically about non-NAC Navajo beliefs, which turned up a bunch of cites claiming that yes, Navajo religion involved the use of peyote for hundreds of years! But now I am wondering if I didn’t stumble across cites _affiliated with_ the Native American Church, which would obviously not be the most… impartial… source. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/169 "2024-01-11T15:47:47Z")
Many Navajo certainly use peyote for religious purposes _now_, but I think their Northern origins means it wasn’t part of their original cultural package. Although - it was definitely taken up by similarly-originating Apaches in that post-migration time period. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/170 "2024-01-11T16:06:08Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > I’m sure there are lots of fundies who object to any practice of any religion not their own particular sect of christianism. Fundie-adjacent SCOTUS justices changed their mind about the peyote use by Native Americans for religious purposes based on 1st amendment principles. Mainly to provide a reason to give more consideration to Christian fundamentalist claims for special treatment for their religious beliefs, such as banning abortion and employment discrimination against insufficiently Christian people. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/171 "2024-01-12T03:20:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think it’s appropriate that the US was willing to listen to the concerns of the Navajo Nation, because we are a democracy and the government should listen to its citizens. I also think it’s appropriate that the US then ignored those concerns, because we are a democracy and the concerns of a small minority that boiled down to a religious objection to other people doing stuff that has cultural importance to the other people shouldn’t be enshrined in government law or policy. IANAL, but AFAICT the amount of daylight between the concepts of “law” and “policy” can be considerable. A lot of people here have been throwing around arguments about the government “basing legislation on religious beliefs”, and why they think that’s a bad idea (and as a longstanding ACLU member, I concur with the general principle underlying many of those arguments). But I think it bears pointing out that AFAICT, the Navajo were nowhere demanding or even requesting that putting corpse remains on the moon be made illegal due to its violating their religious beliefs. Asking for their religious beliefs to be respected is not the same thing as demanding that their religious taboos be enshrined in secular law. So I think a lot of the current handwringing about the theocratic perils of religious believers “ask[ing] the government to legislate what people are allowed to do based on their personal religious beliefs” is overblown in this instance. I also think it would be just fine for the Navajo to make (very publicly) similar requests of the commercial corpse-ritual providers that control the relevant parts of the mission payload. And it would be just fine if the providers acceded to their requests, if only for fear of potential negative publicity. (For one thing, the sarcastic parody ads pretty much write themselves: “Did your Grandpa Joe miss out on opportunities to upset and insult Native American peoples during his lifetime? Well, now you can remedy that omission after his death by befouling the moon with Grandpa’s burnt corpse powder! For a mere twelve thousand dollars, you can honor your loved one’s memory by using their dead body parts to disgust and distress millions of people in ways your loved one never considered or intended!” I suspect that a lot of the “eternal-union-with-the-glories-of-the-cosmos”-type sentimentalists who make up a big part of the target demographic of companies like Celestis would be less enthusiastic about their extravagant moon-funeral plans if they realized it was making them look like insensitive assholes.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/172 "2024-01-12T03:32:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Asking for their religious beliefs to be respected is not the same thing as demanding that their religious taboos be enshrined in secular law. What could this possibly mean? The Navajo of course have the right to petition the government for whatever they want. But as **Riemann** said, it’s rather patronizing for the government to say “Yes, we hear you and respect your beliefs. Nevertheless, absolutely nothing you say will have the slightest effect on policy and we will go back to doing what we were the very instant you leave this room.” Of course, they could leave that last part out. But then it would be dishonest _and_ patronizing. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/173 "2024-01-12T03:44:11Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > What could this possibly mean? Well, if you want to know what they mean, why not read what they wrote? AFAICT, the Navajo Nation leader was requesting a launch postponement to allow time for interagency consultation with Native tribes. I agree that that sounds less sexy and dramatic than “oh noes the Indians are trying to force the government to base legislation on religious belief!”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/174 "2024-01-12T03:51:43Z")
Why should the launch be postponed for religious reasons? Should absolutely anyone be able to delay a launch based on their superstitions? And why should it matter for the Navajo, if the launch is going to take place eventually anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/175 "2024-01-12T03:54:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I agree that that sounds less sexy and dramatic than “oh noes the Indians are trying to force the government to base legislation on religious belief!”. They are asking the government to exercise its power to stop people doing something out of respect for their religious beliefs. I really don’t see what difference you think it makes whether exercising that power is executive or requires legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/176 "2024-01-12T04:04:05Z")
It sounds as though you (ETA: both you and Riemann) may be mixing up “government doing something blatantly unconstitutional in violation of separation of church and state” with “government doing anything at all influenced by religious considerations”. (See also: government-funded chaplains.) I don’t know exactly what specific agency actions the Navajo nation was hoping would result from the desired consultations, nor the extent to which said actions would be constitutional. To the extent that any such (still currently unspecified) actions wouldn’t be constitutional, naturally, I’m agin 'em. But I am not convinced that the hypothetical scenarios that some posters seem to be inferring actually warrant so much concern at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/177 "2024-01-12T04:07:45Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > What could this possibly mean? The Navajo of course have the right to petition the government for whatever they want. But as **Riemann** said, it’s rather patronizing for the government to say “Yes, we hear you and respect your beliefs. Nevertheless, absolutely nothing you say will have the slightest effect on policy and we will go back to doing what we were the very instant you leave this room.” In a pluralistic society, what does it mean to respect someone’s belief? As a general rule I don’t make fun of people for their religious beliefs and at times I’ll even particpate even when I don’t believe. At events where people bow their heads and there’s a prayer I will remain silent out of respect just as an example. But in this particular case, do we have respect for this particular Navajo belief if we simply decide to put human remains on the moon knowing it’s an affront to them? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/178 "2024-01-12T04:10:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “government doing anything at all influenced by religious considerations”. (See also: government-funded chaplains.) Chaplaincy programs are pretty dubious, but they are not intended to _stop_ people doing anything. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t know exactly what specific agency actions the Navajo nation was hoping would result from the desired consultations This is as vague as the “let them speak” schtick. This discussion is about what actions the government _should_ take to accommodate religious belief. I really don’t see how “we’re not sure exactly what they are asking for” contributes to that, other than to obfuscate. If the Navajo are _not_ asking the government to do anything to stop the mission, then there is no issue. If they are, then the government should decline. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/179 "2024-01-12T04:17:58Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > But in this particular case, do we have respect for this particular Navajo belief if we simply decide to put human remains on the moon knowing it’s an affront to them? There is no objective harm here. The “affront” derives from the intolerance of their belief and their desire to impose their beliefs on others, not from placing remains on the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727/180 "2024-01-12T04:23:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The “affront” derives from the intolerance of their belief and their desire to impose their beliefs on others, not from placing remains on the moon. I get that. But if I’m more than happy to do it knowing they don’t like it, do I really respect their beliefs? I’d have to say the answer is no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navajo-nation-object-to-leaving-human-remains-on-moon/995727.md?page=10)