# Naval JAG Out on His Eear **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766 "2006-10-09T02:33:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/41 "2006-10-09T13:59:08Z")
Why? Here’s why: Because in the course of this administration the most reliable indicator has been to assume and infer the worst and most cynical motives for every action to take place in the public eye. It’s an attitude that has been bang on the money for 2-3 years now. And with that record I’m not about to abandon it in any sort of hurry. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/42 "2006-10-09T14:10:15Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > No dismissal is going to occur in these circumstances without an awareness and consideration of the message that dismissal is going to send. Remember this is high profile stuff. There really are only 2 options: Both concern that message: > > - Intent; or > > - Indifference. > > Why? Because like it or not, this is a showcase to demonstrate the integrity of its military law. Either the Navy wanted the message out there that: > > - Its laws have no integrity; or > > - It is indifferent to its law’s reputation. > > Instead, appointing this man would have been a proud moment to highlight the independence and integrity of the system. There is no telling me that any one of these points was not thought of in the whole process. Agreed, however promoting him would mean that someone else didn’t get promoted for public relations reasons. That also gets to be known within the group and that’s not good either. I find it difficult to believe that from way up high in the naval chain of command an order was sent down the line to a promotion board that this guy should be passed over for the third time. Much as I agree with your unwillingness to cut the administration any slack on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/43 "2006-10-09T14:11:40Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Either the Navy wanted the message out there that: > > - Its laws have no integrity; or > - It is indifferent to its law’s reputation. I’d bet on the latter. There is strong sentiment in the military (especially since the perceived “PC” changes of the 1980s and '90s) that allowing civilian America to pass judgment on how it does its job only weakens its ability to do that job. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/44 "2006-10-09T14:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sir Rhosis] And , actually, most service members do get some kind of little “thank you/good job” ribbon when they leave the service, unless they’re doing so under other than honorable conditions. [/QUOTE] It may be different now, but when I was in the Army, it was a rarity for anyone to even get the Good Conduct Medal prior to separation. (In my experience, both active and reserve, I’ve only seen _one_ awarded, either enlisted or officer.) ---
**Author:** ![usar\_jag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/45 "2006-10-09T14:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Rysdad] It may be different now, but when I was in the Army, it was a rarity for anyone to even get the Good Conduct Medal prior to separation. (In my experience, both active and reserve, I’ve only seen _one_ awarded, either enlisted or officer.) [/QUOTE] I hope you never saw an Officer awarded a GCM. It may be because of the fact that GCM’s are a [“turn-key” type of an award (every three years),](http://www.americal.org/awards/agcm.htm)that you never saw an award ceremony. Come to think of it, I’ve never seen a ceremony for a GCM, either. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/46 "2006-10-09T15:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] I bow to no one in my scorn for GW and his administration. However what you post is why this isn’t an open and shut case of payback. I believe that it is a case of the “third time is the charm.” So this JAG had been passed over at least once, if your two is correct, or twice if it’s the third passover that means out. It is entirely possible to be a crackerjack attorney and not as good a naval officer as those with whom you are competing. I agree it looks suspicious on its face and that’s why this is a good means of getting rid of those that are troublemakers, but in order to do so the “troublemaker” also has to be on the edge anyway. [/QUOTE] Good point. The thing is, in the overall scheme of things, I think this doesn’t really matter. The guy is going to get a nice paying job in the civilian world **and** he will continue representing the Gitmo detainees (according to the article I read). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/47 "2006-10-09T15:47:41Z")
[QUOTE=usar\_jag] I’m inclined to believe that **Monty** has it correct with #3. I’m not familiar with Navy Regs, but the Army would only force you to retire if you were twice passed over for promotion. There is a good chance that Lt.Cdr. Swift may have already had a strike against him, for whatever reason. [/QUOTE] The US Navy also has a “separate for twice failing to select for promotion” rule. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/48 "2006-10-10T14:05:13Z")
[QUOTE=usar\_jag] I hope you never saw an Officer awarded a GCM. It may be because of the fact that GCM’s are a [“turn-key” type of an award (every three years),](http://www.americal.org/awards/agcm.htm)that you never saw an award ceremony. Come to think of it, I’ve never seen a ceremony for a GCM, either. [/QUOTE] Or it may be because only enlisted personnel are eligible to receive the Good Conduct Medal. And in the USN, I’ve seen many, many ceremonies for GCMs. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/49 "2006-10-10T14:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sir Rhosis] …And , actually, most service members do get some kind of little “thank you/good job” ribbon when they leave the service, unless they’re doing so under other than honorable conditions… [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rysdad] It may be different now, but when I was in the Army, it was a rarity for anyone to even get the Good Conduct Medal prior to separation. (In my experience, both active and reserve, I’ve only seen _one_ awarded, either enlisted or officer.) [/QUOTE] My experience as a Naval officer supports **Sir Rhosis** ’s assertion, with respect to officers, anyway. (And as I stated above, commissioned officers are not eligible to receive Good Conduct Medals.) Most Naval officers, at the conclusion of an assignment, receive what’s known as an “end-of-tour” award. The type of award depends on the rank of the officer. LTJGs and LTs typically receive the [Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_Achievement_Medal). LCDRs and above-average LTs typically receive the [Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Commendation_Medal). Officers usually get end-of-tour awards even if they are separating from the service. Many good Naval officers are separated every year for failure to promote. Sometimes it’s because they fall off of the promotion track. For example, my wife was a Navy Nurse Corps officer who was told that she would not promote if she didn’t complete her Master’s degree and accept an overseas assignment. This did not fit in with her career plans. She refused the overseas assignment, and two years later, she failed to promote. However, she was doing an excellent job in her last stateside assignment, and received a Commendation Medal on her last day in the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![usar\_jag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/50 "2006-10-10T14:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=robby] Or it may be because only enlisted personnel are eligible to receive the Good Conduct Medal. And in the USN, I’ve seen many, many ceremonies for GCMs. [/QUOTE] My statement was poorly worded. Officers (at least in the Army) are inelligible to receive the GCM; however, they can wear the GCM ribbon or medal if they were awarded it as an enlisted Soldier. My “turn-key” comment was referring only to the lack of ceremonies–because it’s relatively automatic, there may be fewer ceremonies surrounding the award of the GCM. Good on the Navy for recognizing their Sailors. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/51 "2006-10-10T14:32:22Z")
It is worth noting that he was not lead counsel, nor did he do the lion’s share of the work for Hamdan. That was Neal Katyal. I think this situation is fishy, but this guy was appointed to the case (he had to take it) and he was only minorly involved in the argumentation before the Supreme Court. To me that both lessens the chance that this was political retribution and says that we don’t actually know how fine a lawyer he was (at least not from this piece of evidence). ---
**Author:** ![usar\_jag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/52 "2006-10-10T14:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=robby] Or it may be because only enlisted personnel are eligible to receive the Good Conduct Medal. And in the USN, I’ve seen many, many ceremonies for GCMs. [/QUOTE] My statement was poorly worded. Officers (at least in the Army) are inelligible to receive the GCM; however, they can wear the GCM ribbon or medal if they were awarded it as an enlisted Soldier. My “turn-key” comment was referring only to the lack of ceremonies–because it’s relatively automatic, there may be fewer ceremonies surrounding the award of the GCM. Good on the Navy for recognizing their Sailors. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/53 "2006-10-10T14:43:48Z")
In the US Military, at least for officers, it’s bye after a certain term of service or after the third passover. Even if people get to flag rank, it’s still a waiver issue past thirty years or so. An exception is the US PHS, where, after three passovers, you can stay, but they stop promoting you. I vaguely recall earlier stories about the guy not being promotable because he pissed off people on a regular basis, and because he spent too much time as a litigator, and not enough time doing the generalised officer stuff that people need to do to be promotable. He may have been assigned the ugly case precisely because he was on the way out anyway, because he was a contrarian, and because he was a good litigator. What you’ll find is more emphasis placed on progression for those with Regular Commissions, especially those with service academy credentials, with OTC/ROTC/Direct Commission people seeing a much harder road in getting past O-4. And the rules are different for non-Line Officers … fewer slots, and different standards. While the non-Line people are important, the emphasis is on line personnel, who actually perform and supervise the actual missions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/54 "2006-10-10T14:52:37Z")
While I think it might be interesting to see whether something shady occurred, I am disinclined to think that on a first view. The military has not been all that supportive of the administration policies (beyond what is required by their jobs) so I would not see a strong motive for his superiors for punishing him for just doing his job. If the administration (via Rumsfeld?) actually reached down into the system to mess with it, I would expect there to be stories from “anonymous military sources” screaming to high heaven. (We certainly have received lots of information about the fact that the Joint Chiefs were overruled on the number of troops committed to Iraq, the amount and placement of armor on vehicles and humans, and any number of other issues where the administration and the military differ.) As noted, this guy was already on his last legs in the service. This is not his first failure to be promoted (which, as noted, seems to be consistent with JAG careers). I’m willing to entertain information indicating that this was a screw, but I would like to see some genuine evidence before I get excited about it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/55 "2006-10-10T15:15:38Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I’m willing to entertain information indicating that this was a screw, but I would like to see some genuine evidence before I get excited about it. [/QUOTE] Hmm…“screw” and “get excited”? You posting to the right thread, **Tom**? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/56 "2006-10-10T16:05:00Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] Lt. Com. Charles Swift on Hardball:Quote: Originally Posted by Charles Swift [/QUOTE] No, it wasn’t. Lt. Com. Charles Swift is not a member here and did not _post_ that statement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/57 "2006-10-10T18:59:16Z")
Ease up there, hoss. Context makes it perfectly clear that **Hamlet** is quoting from an appearance on _Hardball_ by said Swift. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/58 "2006-10-10T19:12:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Ease up there, hoss. Context makes it perfectly clear that **Hamlet** is quoting from an appearance on _Hardball_ by said Swift. [/QUOTE] Then he could have used those funny little “”“” marks like everyone else. Swift did not post those remarks here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/59 "2006-10-10T19:26:05Z")
Do you think there was some intent to deceive? About what? Shirley, you can’t mean to suggest that the perfidious **Hamlet** was trying to get us to believe that Lt. Cmdr. Swift is a Doper? To what end? What’s up,\*\* Doc\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-jag-out-on-his-eear/375766/60 "2006-10-10T19:27:57Z")
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