# Naval officer: Up, or out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 25, 2022, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100 "2022-05-25T21:18:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/41 "2022-05-27T11:24:12Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Or do they actually have layoffs sometimes, like Reacher in the book series? Reacher was not laid off (IIRC): he was explicitly told that he would never be promoted plus he would spend the rest of his time until mandatory retirement at a desk job (or worse) in Bumfuck, Alaska. So he quit. Before the last straw, Reacher was also demoted from major to captain at least once, though he is a major when he retires (at age 36). Later it is mentioned that, in addition to his normal duties, he was also an off-the-books assassin and who knows what else. Like Maverick, he is apparently irreplaceable, as evidenced by the fact that at least once or twice the Army tracks him down and has him do a job even though he is at least 15 years out of the service. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/42 "2022-05-27T11:36:51Z")
Good post. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/43 "2022-05-27T15:19:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > When I encountered him he had about 18 months to make his 20 years and his pension. He was counting the days. Just curious. Would his pension be based on his last rank or his highest rank? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/44 "2022-05-27T15:37:26Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > His character is a moron and he would have been grounded administratively for deliberately breaking the ‘hard deck’ and likely disciplined for the incident leading to the death of his RIO, revoking flight status. - [It’s much worse than that.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTx_qZL3tqM) LegalEagle video. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/45 "2022-05-27T19:27:41Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Just curious. Would his pension be based on his last rank or his highest rank? Pension is typically based upon last held rank plus time in service but depending upon time in rank and other merits and commendations some officers actually get ‘promoted’ upon retirement to the next highest rank for the purpose of pension and retirement benefits. You can actually end up being a brigadier general or rear admiral (lower half) without ever having held a flag in service. Alternatively, for an officer that is performing unsatisfactorily or achieved some significant political disfavor, they can be reduced in rank and administratively forced or ‘persuaded’ to retire at lower rank, in which case their pension will be based upon their reduced rank and time in service. I don’t personally know anyone to whom that has happened but I’ve heard enough stories to know that it isn’t a once-in-a-blue-moon rarity. > [@running\_coach](#): > > [It’s much worse than that.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTx_qZL3tqM) > LegalEagle video. I’ve been meaning to block out the time to watch that video and give it the attention it deserves but I can just imagine what LegalEagle and a walk-on judge advocate general (JAG) officer could come up with on ‘Maverick’. Aviators are known for being pretty cocky but you can’t be undisciplined or so selfish that you put other aviators at risk and expect to maintain your flight status for longer than it takes a wing commander or CAG to pick up the phone to the commanding general or CNAF and say, “I have a flyer who needs to have his wings permanently clipped today!” Combat aviation is very much a ‘team sport’ and aviators who are unprofessional in the cockpit (or even in the briefing room) are going to find themselves flying an office chair for the rest of their probably-not-very-long career in service. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/46 "2022-05-27T20:04:30Z")
Here are some excerpts from the bang-on-the-nose “rewatch review” of Top Gun from Lindy West’s 2021 collection Shit, Actually: > [@](#): > > […] Maverick is such a desperate, narcissistic, posturing, alienating, twerpy little prince that I find myself disorientingly at odds with a former self who long ago considered Tom Cruise to be attractive. Who was she? That woman who could look at a picture of young Tom and not flash immediately to this jittery rat terrier with a barely contained rage problem, a monomaniacal fixation on personal glory at the expense of the safety of everyone around him, and an approach to women that can charitably be described as Biff-esque [character from Back to the Future]? I don’t know her. […] > > They discuss Maverick’s upside-down Polaroid maneuver, and Iceman asks, VALIDLY, “Who was covering Cougar while you were showboating?” Maverick is like, “Cougar was doing just fine,” but we know he wasn’t! He almost crashed and died and then literally quit the navy! Why is nobody but Iceman fact-checking Maverick here!? > > We’re clearly supposed to resent Iceman for trying to stifle Maverick’s unbelievably bitching bad-boy flying skills in the name of “SAFETY” and “REGARD FOR OTHERS” (boooooo!) […] > > Meg Ryan tells Charlie all about Maverick’s many previous erotique lovers, but assures her that he is extremely hot for teacher now and, yes, don’t worry, you should definitely trust that guy! […] For sure marry this unhinged tween! […] > > Maverick flies bad now. He’s scared. He blames himself for Goose’s death. He fights with his new partner. All the while, the wretched villain, Iceman, looks on with an expression that says, “How can we build some more productive teamwork strategies?” > > Iceman approaches Maverick, just to twist the knife: “I’m sorry about Goose. Everybody liked him.” Curse you, Iceman! From hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee! > > The villain of this movie literally only says kind and responsible things the entire time. > > Maverick decides he’s going to drop out of TOPGUN, and, oh no? It’s hard to care about the loss of one insubordinate and only slightly above-average pilot when I have no idea who the navy is actually fighting or what’s at stake. […] > > If they recut Top Gun with Maverick edited out, it would be a gorgeous short film about sunsets and friendship. Petition to recut real life with all Mavericks edited out. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/47 "2022-05-27T20:40:13Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > [It’s much worse than that.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTx_qZL3tqM) > > > > > LegalEagle video. > > I’ve been meaning to block out the time to watch that video and give it the attention it deserves but I can just imagine what LegalEagle and a walk-on judge advocate general (JAG) officer could come up with on ‘Maverick’. So I just took a break form reading qualification test reports to watch this video (I watched the Nebula subscriber version which appears to have a few extra minutes of content) and was pretty onboard with the discussion but then they got to the point after talking about “Innocent Passage” through territorial waters (around the 26 minute mark in the Nebula version) and Devin made the observation about the unstated opponent “…who in the Indian Ocean is a hostile power, flying MiG-28s equipped with [French] Exocet missiles…?” and at the same time Spencer was “tak[ing] a stab in the dark about who it could be…/” I yelled out, “Sri Lanka!” This, of course, must be a reference to the Secret War Against Sri Lanka, which was a little-covered conflict in 1986 in which the Tamil Tigers briefly took over the government of the island nation, purchased the unique and otherwise never-exported MiG-28 jet fighter (which is apparently an unlicensed exact copy of the Northrop F-5 ‘Tiger II’), somehow scraped up funds to purchase Exocet AM39 air-to-ground anti-ship missiles, and waged a brief and unsuccessful war with the United States Navy 7th Fleet. It’s a good thing they shipped out ‘Maverick’ and ‘Iceman’; I don’t think any average Naval aviators would have stood a chance! Also, why are people in the control tower so shocked about jet aircraft flying by that they repeatedly spill coffee all over themselves? This is like a locomotive engineer who hates steam whistles! If this movie were actually taken as a real representation of the lives of naval aviators, it makes the entire US Navy look like a bunch of Keystone Cops. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/48 "2022-05-27T22:15:15Z")
Wasn’t Top Gun actually based on some Cold War Indian ocean encounter? People claim it’s actually based on the two encounters of F-14s against the Libyans but a video I watched 5 years ago on YouTube made a convincing case with some incident in the 70s where no aircraft were shot down but it was very similar to the movie. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/49 "2022-05-27T22:31:48Z")
> [@Kimstu quoting Lindy West](#): > > If they recut Top Gun with Maverick edited out, it would be a gorgeous short film about sunsets and friendship. **DesertRoomie** loves _Top Gun_ so when it was released in 3D a few years ago we had to see it. After the title sequence with the dawn flight deck ops was finished I said, “Good part’s over – we can leave now.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/50 "2022-05-27T22:33:53Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Wasn’t Top Gun actually based on some Cold War Indian ocean encounter? It was over the [Gulf of Sidra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Sidra_incident_(1981)) in the Med. Libya claimed it as territorial waters. We begged to differ. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/51 "2022-05-27T23:27:01Z")
A propos, lest we forget, the best F-14 flying ace ever was timsar [Jalil Zandi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalil_Zandi). He was nearly “out” after (thanks to his notorious CO infamously rooting out the “disloyal”, and whose orders he disobeyed on at least one known occasion, like some sort of maverick) being sentenced to ten years’ imprisonment as well as a death sentence from the Mullahs, but by demand of the air force commander and many other pilots was allowed to return to his unit after six months. 11 air-to-air kills during the Iran–Iraq war. Killed in a car accident in 2001, along with his wife. ETA Israeli ace-of-aces [Giora “Hawkeye” Epstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giora_Epstein) was on active flight mission duty until age 59. Of course, instead of being a thorn in anybody’s side (on the Israeli team, at least) he racked up a bunch of medals and retired a brigadier general. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/52 "2022-05-28T00:07:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > OTOH, in my 8 years active time dealing with both USAF and the Army, he was the one and only rank-hermaphrodite like that I ever encountered. When my brother was in the Air Force (early 1960s) he saw a few ROTC officers with a 19 1/2 years service broken back to E-5 or something so they would only have to pay him a sergeant’s pension. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/53 "2022-05-28T00:44:58Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > When my brother was in the Air Force (early 1960s) he saw a few ROTC officers with a 19 1/2 years service broken back to E-5 or something so they would only have to pay him a sergeant’s pension. That’s more than an administrative punishment. What the heck did they do to have commissions revoked? It is pretty common for NCOs to be sent to a shitty duty assignment on Year 19 or 20 to force them to muster out instead of completing their service to retire on full pension, but if you’ve busted 18+ years in service and made it to E-6 or better most will stick it out for the pension and benefits. Really, the pension is far from the biggest expense that the military owes veterans, and as shitty as the various branches can be it, the post-9/11 GI Bill, housing and retirement benefits are worth toughing it out. I did know a diesel mechanic to mustered out on year 19 rather than do another tour in Afghanistan but his entire life was kind of in the shitter at that point. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/54 "2022-05-28T01:06:53Z")
I had a cousin in the US Army during the 00’s who got pregnant 3 times during her 6 year enlistment, and the family rumor was that she did it deliberately so she wouldn’t be deployed outside the country. I read online that the Army might actually discharge you from active service if they suspect you’re doing it deliberately similar to the Up or Out? But my cousin served all 6 years so that didn’t happen for her. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/55 "2022-05-28T01:24:21Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > > > When my brother was in the Air Force (early 1960s) he saw a few ROTC officers with a 19 1/2 years service broken back to E-5 or something so they would only have to pay him a sergeant’s pension. > > That’s more than an administrative punishment. What the heck did they do to have commissions revoked? I would take all of it with a grain of salt. I’m not saying no officer ever has reverted back to enlisted rank or that it couldn’t have happened in the 60s, but it’s abnormal. It my have been more common back in the day when temporary commissions were more common, or when there were actually “different” armies. For instance, during WWII (and even into Vietnam), within the United States Army, there was the Regular Army, and there was the Army of the United States (there was and still is also the Army Reserves and the Army National Guard). The AUS was where they tended to put draftees. It was possible, perhaps even the norm, for regular army soldiers to hold different ranks in either army. You might be a Captain in the Regular Army, but then a Lieutenant Colonel in the AUS. Or you might only be in the AUS. Or you might be a sergeant in the army with a temporary commission in the AUS. Nowadays, there are still temporary commissions (or at least there were 10 years ago in the Navy—I have a sense they might have done away with them in the sense I remember), mostly in the case of Limited Duty Officers who were enlisted, and then selected for an officer’s commission based on their enlisted service/expertise, without the need for a bachelors degree. It was theoretically possible into the 21st century for LDOs, while still under a temporary commission, to revert back to enlisted either by choice, a failure to promote as an officer, or some such other abnormality. All this to say, barring some very unusual circumstances, officers cannot be demoted. Enlisted can be demoted, but officers with a permanent commission cannot. You can look it up in the Manual for Courts Martial if you want. An officer can be dismissed (the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge) by a general court martial, but cannot be demoted. Except in works of fiction written by people who do not understand the modern US military. Quick end note: someone mentioned commissioned officers becoming warrant officers. I had heard of such a thing happening involving an army help pilot, but am not sure of the nuances of how it occurred (such as whether the officer in question might have left the regular army and then joined the national guard or vice versa). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/56 "2022-05-28T03:26:59Z")
An O6 is the rank that the _captain_ of an aircraft carrier and the commander of the carrier air group has. I think, but am not sure, that CAGs are required to stay current on their flight qualifications. But even at that, Mav wouldn’t be a full-time pilot, he’d basically be in more of an administrative role if he was CAG or captain of an aircraft carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/57 "2022-05-28T05:18:24Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > All this to say, barring some very unusual circumstances, officers cannot be demoted. Enlisted can be demoted, but officers with a permanent commission cannot. You can look it up in the Manual for Courts Martial if you want. An officer can be dismissed (the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge) by a general court martial, but cannot be demoted. Except in works of fiction written by people who do not understand the modern US military. Your first sentence contradicts the rest of that paragraph. At any rate, the military itself disagrees with your assertion that “officers cannot be demoted.” > **[‘Inappropriate sexual acts’ prompt Air Force to retroactively demote retired...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/02/01/inappropriate-sexual-acts-prompts-air-force-to-retroactively-demote-retired-general-two-ranks/?utm_term=.140319e20cd2)** > > Retired Gen. Arthur J. Lichte retired in 2010. And even more extreme– > **[Retired Two-Star Reduced to 2nd Lieutenant After Sexual Battery Conviction](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/06/08/retired-two-star-reduced-2nd-lieutenant-after-sexual-battery-conviction.html)** > > James Grazioplene was indicted by a grand jury on multiple charges, including rape, incest and aggravated sexual battery. And this article says, “The U.S. military commonly retires officers at the last rank at which they served satisfactorily.” > **[Fired general who sent ‘sexually suggestive’ emails allowed to keep rank at...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/05/18/fired-general-who-sent-sexually-suggestive-emails-allowed-to-keep-rank-at-retirement/?utm_term=.d98aeff7f28e&itid=lk_inline_manual_22)** > > Lt. Gen. John Hesterman III sent sexually suggestive emails to a married female officer. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/58 "2022-05-28T05:25:31Z")
A retirement grade determination is not a demotion, it’s a retirement grade determination. Note also that in the second sentence I said “permanent.” ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/59 "2022-05-28T06:19:51Z")
I just saw the movie tonight and it was done quite well. All in our group really enjoyed it. As for Maverick being a forever O-6, as a veteran I didn’t worry about it. It didn’t bother me and I did not get all wrapped around the axle about it. It’s Hollywood. I did notice that the military uniforms and rifle detail and funeral detail and salutes and protocol in the movie looked pretty good. They did a good job with this movie. I recommend the movie. It’s a lot of fun! ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100/60 "2022-05-28T12:17:25Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > > > I remember an WO who’d avoided up or out by swapping his commission for a warrant. > > You mean he went from being a commissioned officer to a warrant officer? That seems…unusual to say the least. I was friends with two helicopter pilots who did that. Both were in the Navy with family commitments [multiple kids and wives not happy with long ship deployments] went/transferred to the Army at a Warrant rank. This was sometime in the mid/later eighties and they probably hit a pilot shortage time to make the transfer a go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naval-officer-up-or-out/965100.md?page=4)