# Navigation Directions in Degrees -- what is zero? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648 "2016-08-13T02:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/21 "2016-08-13T21:03:33Z")
> [@MonkeyMensch](#): > > For a _serious_ nit-pick (because I’m that much of a nautical-aviation-train geek!): **Trinopus** is wrong re “North by West North-West” as a direction. The direction he’s trying to specify is “Northwest by West”. You can remember that the three point names aren’t used in combination with the other directions and the Cardinal direction always comes last. Some people say I need to get a life, but I swear it’s around here somewhere; maybe it’s behind the couch. . . . Grin! Good catch! I was definitely trying to use four directions, not three, so “Northwest by West” wasn’t my intention. I wanted another halving. I just screwed up the order! (I learned it as additive: North-West is 315. West North-West backs this westward by 22.5 degrees, so it’s 292.5. North by this, to North by West North-West pushes it northward again by 11.25 degrees, for 303.75. The only absolute rule is you can’t contradict yourself by saying such things as West by North-East.) And, wait… The Cardinal direction always comes last? Not necessarily! Olde Timey nautical talk permitted “West by North-West” just as easily as “North-West by West.” It’s one of those lingo things where people talk loosely and others understand them. Also, the Alfred Hitchcock film, North by Northwest. Googling “West by Northwest” also gives gobs of hits. I’m willing to accept that they are technically wrong, but… (Reading a lot of old-time naval guff, and the construction “knots per hour” is so often used, it might just as well be correct.) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/22 "2016-08-13T23:52:30Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Huh? > > At least two Montreal-area airports - Trudeau (CYUL) & Saint-Hubert (CYHU) - have runways designated 06. Both participate in the international standard whereby north is 0 (or 36) and headings increase clockwise. So so a plane landing on Runway 06 is headed northeast. He is referring to magnetic and true north. There must be about 60° of variation there. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/23 "2016-08-14T00:23:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Also, the Alfred Hitchcock film, North by Northwest. Googling “West by Northwest” also gives gobs of hits. I’m willing to accept that they are technically wrong, but… The movie title isn’t a direction although it appears to be. Apparently it was simply the working title for the movie. Even so, Hitchcock enjoyed the ambiguity, as he acknowledged that there was no such direction. My father told me it was supposed to mean “travelling north on NorthWest Airlines” but this is pushing things. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/24 "2016-08-14T05:19:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > He is referring to magnetic and true north. There must be about 60° of variation there. Variation / declination in Montreal is 14.5 degrees west. You have to go far north in Canada to find any place where it exceeds 30 degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/25 "2016-08-14T05:55:09Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > As if all that’s not confusing enough, at least with marine charts, you have to deal with [magnetic declination](https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/declination.shtml). > > In other words, north ain’t always north. It’s true on all topographic maps, the compass doesn’t point to grid north, or the geographic North pole except in general way, Magnetic north is somewhere around the Ellesmere islands. So depending on location one will be east or west of Grid north. If one is using a compass alone for navigation it won’t matter, or using a map alone, it won’t matter. Once we start shooting bearings on the map and transferring these figures to the compass, and vice versa, the declination must be taken into account. A really great place to observe and practice orienteering and triangulation, backbearings and such is the American desert Southwest, where there are plenty of unique landmarks and strange shaped rock formations visible for dozens of miles in any direction. Of course with modern GPS and google Earth and the rest of it, map and compass is a dying art. There was a recent news blurb about a young lady who was driving on a road that had a rock slide and thus closed, and she was crying because there was no alternate route or somesuch on her smartphone. There were maps available at the nearby convenience store. The military is no doubt suffering similar problems in training. "Ok fellas, an EMP strike has taken out the sats, gotta use a map and compass now. “wha?” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/26 "2016-08-14T08:40:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Grin! Good catch! I was definitely trying to use four directions, not three, so “Northwest by West” wasn’t my intention. I wanted another halving. I just screwed up the order! If you want to make it sound even more convoluted, try “northwest by west, half west”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/27 "2016-08-14T11:38:57Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Variation / declination in Montreal is 14.5 degrees west. You have to go far north in Canada to find any place where it exceeds 30 degrees. Thanks, in that case I have no idea what he’s on about. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/28 "2016-08-15T01:07:30Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Variation / declination in Montreal is 14.5 degrees west. You have to go far north in Canada to find any place where it exceeds 30 degrees. If you were standing directly between the North Pole and the Magnetic North Pole, wouldn’t the magnetic declination be 180 degrees? > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > If you want to make it sound even more convoluted, try “northwest by west, half west”. Grin! I like it! But, then, I read a lot of the kinds of stories where the wind backs a point and the helmsman falls off to match and someone holystones the halliards and scuppers the futtocks and so on. (Dr. Watson was right: William Clark Russell does write fine sea stories!) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/29 "2016-08-15T04:43:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Grin! I like it! But, then, I read a lot of the kinds of stories where the wind backs a point and the helmsman falls off to match and someone holystones the halliards and scuppers the futtocks and so on. The helm can also be instructed to steer “full and by”; you’re not so much trying to hold a specific course as you’re trying to keep the sails full of wind. If you come a little too close to the direction of the wind, you’ll see one of the upper sails start to flutter a bit (called a “luff”), so you just bear away from the wind a bit until the luff stops. There are also bearings relative to the ship. Something straight in front of you is “dead ahead”. Something about 10 degrees left of that is “one point off the port bow”. Something to your left and a bit behind is “one point abaft the port beam”. It’s its own world with its own language. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/30 "2016-08-15T05:16:44Z")
Just as one example, it’s always “North-West” but never “West-North,” even though the two would mean exactly the same thing. Just conventions and practices. (Question: does Longitude always come before Latitude, the way x always comes before y?) ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/31 "2016-08-16T07:14:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If you were standing directly between the North Pole and the Magnetic North Pole, wouldn’t the magnetic declination be 180 degrees? Basically, yes - and it tends to be fairly screwy when you are anywhere close to a magnetic pole. Fortunately, the current magnetic pole locations are decently close to the geographic poles and far from where most people hang out. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/32 "2016-08-16T07:48:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Just as one example, it’s always “North-West” but never “West-North,” even though the two would mean exactly the same thing. Just conventions and practices. > > (Question: does Longitude always come before Latitude, the way x always comes before y?) It’s the other way around, latitude then longitude. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/33 "2016-08-16T08:12:26Z")
Compass needles point north-south, not east-west. Also the stars (appear to) revolve around the celestial north pole (or the celestial south pole). Thus for navigators (in the northern hemisphere) the fundamental reference point has always been north. Compass roses are numbered from North, and the numbering proceeds clockwise which is the direction in which celestial bodies appear to travel. All this was standardised at about the same time (and for about the same reason) that clock-dials were standardised with ‘12’ at the top. By the time NATO came along - hell, by the time the US Army came along - it had been a done deal for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/34 "2016-08-16T20:17:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > It’s the other way around, latitude then longitude. Not in military MGRS. It’s “right” then “up.” Different system, of course, but nevertheless the long comes before the lat. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/35 "2016-08-16T23:00:28Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Not in military MGRS. It’s “right” then “up.” Different system, of course, but nevertheless the long comes before the lat. Ah yes, in which case the answer to his question is just “no”. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/36 "2016-08-17T03:25:48Z")
If you’re bored, go to google earth and check out the numbers on the beginnings of each runway on various airports. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/37 "2016-08-17T03:34:51Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Not in military MGRS. It’s “right” then “up.” Different system, of course, but nevertheless the long comes before the lat. > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Ah yes, in which case the answer to his question is just “no”. Drat. I keep hoping for easy-to-remember rules, but sometimes, the world doesn’t offer them! How would Horatio Hornblower (or Nelson) have done it? Lat then long? Or would he have even cared which order, and just stated them as he wanted…in a firm voice of steely command, naturally? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/38 "2016-08-17T04:30:12Z")
If you are using the system of latitude and longitude then it is latitude then longitude e.g., 12º34’S 123º45’E. **Chessic Sense** ’s example is not lat/longs but is a related grid reference system. In other words you can have an easy to remember rule that says latitude first then longitude, but don’t try to extend the rule to other grid reference systems. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648/39 "2016-08-17T05:46:49Z")
It already conflicts with the mathematical convention of x, then y. (But, then, so does the angular reference that I started out asking about. Clearly, mathematics, by itself, is not a sufficient introduction to navigation, although it is certainly helpful.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navigation-directions-in-degrees-what-is-zero/762648.md?page=1)