# Navy battlefield commissions, re: a DS9 episode: Valiant **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367 "2013-12-03T14:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/21 "2013-12-03T16:55:33Z")
One of my favorite Star Trek novels from long ago was _Kobayashi Maru_. In it, we learn that Scott started out as a command-division officer before switching over to engineering and as such had taken the _Kobayashi Maru_ test. He says at some point something to the effect of, “Well, why the hell do you think Kirk left me in command of the ship so often?” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/22 "2013-12-03T17:17:47Z")
In the Trek universe, many things are fluid. From TOS TV eps to ENT novels, even basic things change. Sometimes they change from one to two and then back to one, even in the same series (maybe even same ep!). Don’t let me stop the fascinating discussion going on, tho. I’ll just be Mr. Homn. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/23 "2013-12-03T17:19:43Z")
[Heck, even the Trek universe is fluid in places!](http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Fluidic_space) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/24 "2013-12-03T17:38:31Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > …it stuck up my butt big time that the writers wanted us to accept that a second year student at Star Fleet academy is on the flagship of the fleet and is commissioned as a Captain (presumably) with the position of Captain of the ship. Same here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/25 "2013-12-03T17:55:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Same here. 🙂 I had checked out of the movie LONG before that point–hell, when Kirk was marooned on Trek!Hoth, I was rooting out loud for the ice dinosaurs to kill and eat him, and not in that order. But at the end of the movie, I was hoping against hope that he’d be expecting a command of his own but get only a promotion to lieutenant j.g., and that Pike would tell him, "Look, kid, you’re a genius and all, but the very fact that you THINK you have the experience to command a ship on a day to day basis demonstrates that you do not, in fact, have enough experience. Take the Conn job and be grateful–and remember that you have to call Spock “Sir.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/26 "2013-12-03T18:02:30Z")
:: wistful sigh :: That would have been much better. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/27 "2013-12-03T18:07:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > While I’m a huge Star Trek fan, I needed a one ton grain of salt to view the latest movies. > > As a Naval Officer, it stuck up my butt big time that the writers wanted us to accept that a second year student at Star Fleet academy is on the flagship of the fleet and is commissioned as a Captain (presumably) with the position of Captain of the ship. > > Just no way on this earth that a college student (a midshipman in the Naval Academy) would become Commanding Officer of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier in the Navy. COs of aircraft carriers are Captains with 24 to 28 years in the Navy who are one step away from being an Admiral. There are probably 300 Officers on that ship that are qualified for command. No way there are promoting someone who isn’t even commissioned. > > I know it’s fiction, but that was a bridge too far for me. So when it comes to this type of stuff, I don’t even try and sort it out. They are going to do what they want and how it jives with reality isn’t a consideration. You can’t equate Starfleet with the Navy or any real military organizations. Despite the fact that Roddenberry was a combat veteran he decided to not let real military structure interfere with his plots. Pretty much everyone is an officer. Officers are shown to be doing all the work. Even Chief O’Brien’s status and rank are not fully defined and explained. And later he is treated basically like any of the officers. They call the Enterprise the “flagship” even though there are no flag officers onboard. They put a civilian teenager in an important career making officer’s billet. I think having young Kirk take command is more believable than having a child at the helm of the most prestigious ship in the fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/28 "2013-12-03T18:38:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > :: wistful sigh :: > > That would have been much better. Yes, but the movie had already been ruined by then. Pretty much the only parts I enjoyed were Spock’s polite, elegant, and unmistakable “Fuck you” to the racists at the Vulcan Science Academy, and the Spock-Uhura scenes. Even as a kid, I thought 60s!Uhura had a thing for him but was just smarter than Chapel about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/29 "2013-12-03T18:42:55Z")
Well, the entire Trek Reboot Universe is full of shit. I find it (insert one of many adjectives here) that after ruining the STU with excessive Time Travel in STVoy and Ent, they completely fucked it over backwards with the reboot. We’re at a place where Star Trek has been so totally dominated and corrupted by this Time Travel obsession that it has lost most of it’s value. Yeah, no fucking way Kirk gets promoted like that. But this is a Universe that no longer makes any sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/30 "2013-12-03T18:51:17Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, the entire Trek Reboot Universe is full of shit. I find it (insert one of many adjectives here) that after ruining the STU with excessive Time Travel in STVoy and Ent, they completely fucked it over backwards with the reboot. We’re at a place where Star Trek has been so totally dominated and corrupted by this Time Travel obsession that it has lost most of it’s value. > > Yeah, no fucking way Kirk gets promoted like that. But this is a Universe that no longer makes any sense at all. Would you have been happier if they’d done a _Galactica_ style reboot? Start the story over with no in-universe explanation at all? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/31 "2013-12-03T18:57:46Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > But this is a Universe that no longer makes any sense at all. I hate to break it to you, it never really did. I know its easy to look at the original series through rose colored glasses (I do too) but continuity and logic (sorry Spock) were routinely thrown out the window at the whims of the script. The later series made stronger attempts at continuity and logic but also failed often. The new movies had to explain how the same characters were not exactly the same as they were before and they had to get Kirk and the rest in the positions we want them. The fact that it was done in an accelerated manner doesn’t bother me. Are we supposed to wait until the 10th movie before he gets a command? I just accept that Starfleet does not care about seniority and only takes into account things like saving the world. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/32 "2013-12-03T19:01:52Z")
That’s what I was talking about with “fluidity.” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/33 "2013-12-03T19:05:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Would you have been happier if they’d done a _Galactica_ style reboot? Start the story over with no in-universe explanation at all? Or Bond? “Here’s the crew, they look different but you know the drill.” Problem solved. Or they could have done it in a flashback, shown some exciting time-travel BS and then fast forward 20 years to when Kirk gets his own command. Or just started the story with Kirk in command of some other ship as opposed to a cadet. But in either of those cases, they would have had to have hired age-appropriate actors, and not the sexy action stars that the studio wanted. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/34 "2013-12-03T19:12:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Are we supposed to wait until the 10th movie before he gets a command? I would very much have liked a film about Kirk advancing in rank Hornblower style. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/35 "2013-12-03T19:13:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > they would have had to have hired age-appropriate actors, and not the sexy action stars that the studio wanted. I think you hit it on the head. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/36 "2013-12-03T19:18:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would very much have liked a film about Kirk advancing in rank Hornblower style. 🙂 Which is what one of the early treatments by Roddenberry was, according to various things I’ve read thru the decades. “A Wagon Train to the stars with the leader being akin to a Horatio Hornblower in space.” (or the essence there-of, not an exact quote) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/37 "2013-12-03T19:19:51Z")
Substitute Robert T April or Chris Topher Pike if you feel a need ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/38 "2013-12-03T19:30:36Z")
Going back to the OP, on thinking about it… I don’t think Nog could have usurped command. The kid in command might have been only a cadet in Starfleet’s eyes, but at that moment, on board that ship, he was the captain. Nog, meanwhile, was unambiguously an ensign, but _only_ an ensign. A captain always outranks an ensign, no matter how they came to have those ranks. If anyone could relieve the kid of command, it’d have to be at least another captain, and possibly not even then. I suspect that, even if Sisko had been there instead of Nog, the proper course of action would be for the acting captain to officially remain in command, and take on Sisko as an official advisor. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/39 "2013-12-03T19:33:58Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Or Bond? “Here’s the crew, they look different but you know the drill.” Problem solved. > > Or they could have done it in a flashback, shown some exciting time-travel BS and then fast forward 20 years to when Kirk gets his own command. Or just started the story with Kirk in command of some other ship as opposed to a cadet. But in either of those cases, they would have had to have hired age-appropriate actors, and not the sexy action stars that the studio wanted. Wasn’t what’s-his-name, Chris Pine, in his late 20s or early 30s when the first one came out? That’s the age Krik was supposed to be in the original series, I think. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/40 "2013-12-03T19:40:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Wasn’t what’s-his-name, Chris Pine, in his late 20s or early 30s when the first one came out? That’s the age Krik was supposed to be in the original series, I think. Quick check shows he was 29, Shatner was 35. I guess that’s not terribly different. In that case, the question is why did it take him so damn long to graduate from college?!? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367.md?page=3)