# Navy battlefield commissions, re: a DS9 episode: Valiant **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367 "2013-12-03T14:07:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/61 "2013-12-03T22:05:33Z")
The best back and forth was early TNG Picard. In one ep, he would say, “We are primarly an organization for exploring,” and in one of the very next eps would say, “We will protect this species, even by war if necessary.” (quotes not exact) We come in peace (SHOOT TO KILL, SHOOT TO KILL) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/62 "2013-12-03T22:17:25Z")
We are all things to all races. What do you need today? Maybe that was Troi’s unseen function as Ship’s Counselor. Handling all the angst and dissent over “Hey, I signed up to do X, not Y!” ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/63 "2013-12-03T22:21:50Z")
I sense hostility… [twirls hair] You dumb bitch, of course he’s hostile! He just fired on us! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/64 "2013-12-03T22:21:51Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And declare galactic war against the Dominion. But you know, everyone’s gotta have hobbies. > > eta: Also, there were a few episodes where Starfleet enacted and enforced a bunch of draconian rules to deal with the Shapeshifter threat, including randomly blood testing civilians. Certainly they had the authority to do _that_. They forcibly evicted folks, trading territory with the…the guys with long, scaly necks. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/65 "2013-12-03T22:28:45Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And declare galactic war against the Dominion. But you know, everyone’s gotta have hobbies. > > eta: Also, there were a few episodes where Starfleet enacted and enforced a bunch of draconian rules to deal with the Shapeshifter threat, including randomly blood testing civilians. Certainly they had the authority to do _that_. Well, “they had the authority”. Where does authority come from anyway? Like, who elected them Judge Judy and Executioner? Where does a king’s authority come from? Where does a cop’s authority come from? Where does a soldier’s authority come from? It certainly seems like Starfleet people decide to do lots of things, and people don’t seem to raise much of a fuss when they do, or they raise a fuss, but our heroes tell them, “Whatevah! I do what I want!” So Kirk has the authority to wander the galaxy and blow up computers and kick space-gods in the nuts and blast the hell out of alien spaceships and pork the hell out of alien space babes. Who gave him that authority? Starfleet. Who gave Starfleet that authority? The Federation. Who gave the Federation that authority? Uh… ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/66 "2013-12-03T22:34:46Z")
Doctor Sam Beckett ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/67 "2013-12-03T22:44:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > So Kirk has the authority to wander the galaxy and blow up computers and kick space-gods in the nuts and blast the hell out of alien spaceships and pork the hell out of alien space babes. Who gave him that authority? Starfleet. Who gave Starfleet that authority? The Federation. Who gave the Federation that authority? Uh… The Federation Council? Who may or may not be democratically elected? I can’t remember them ever talking about it, but what we’re describing is a government with a military, not a bunch of boy scouts. I’m with **Skald** , this is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/68 "2013-12-03T23:03:13Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Quick check shows he was 29, Shatner was 35. I guess that’s not terribly different. > > In that case, the question is why did it take him so damn long to graduate from college?!? 🙂 That’s what I was coming back to say. The ages weren’t far off. Who’s to say that Starfleet Academy is college? I thought it was clear from the movie that he was older than usual when he joined because he was busy dicking around in Iowa. And who says the academy is four years? Maybe it’s as long as you need? No need for it to be run like US military academies. The Kirk in the reboot is a just few years younger and less experienced than TOS Kirk. So what? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/69 "2013-12-03T23:15:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Going back to the OP, on thinking about it… I don’t think Nog could have usurped command. The kid in command might have been only a cadet in Starfleet’s eyes, but at that moment, on board that ship, he was the captain. Nog, meanwhile, was unambiguously an ensign, but _only_ an ensign. A captain always outranks an ensign, no matter how they came to have those ranks. If anyone could relieve the kid of command, it’d have to be at least another captain, and possibly not even then. I suspect that, even if Sisko had been there instead of Nog, the proper course of action would be for the acting captain to officially remain in command, and take on Sisko as an official advisor. I agree under one caveat: That the real Captain of the Valiant had “commissioned” the cadets according to the appropriate regulations. If, however, let’s say he didn’t. Hypothetical scenario: the Valiant suffers heavy casualties, killing off all the regular officers somehow, leaving some of the cadets. In this case, they are no different than enlisted survivors of a shipwreck (or battle damaged ship). Then, IMO, any actual Starfleet officer should be able to assume command over the non-commissioned cadets. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/70 "2013-12-03T23:16:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > The Federation Council? Who may or may not be democratically elected? I can’t remember them ever talking about it, but what we’re describing is a government with a military, not a bunch of boy scouts. > > I’m with **Skald** , this is silly. OK, so the Federation gets its authority from the Federation Council. And the Federation Council gets its authority from the citizens of the Federation, who elect them. And so, Kirk gets the authority to drop out of the sky on some random planet and blow up their central computer because a bunch of guys sitting back on Earth told him he could. Do you think the guys on that planet who had their god-computer blown up figure it’s all right, because Kirk is the representative of a liberal democratic government? The people of Earth give themselves the authority to wander the galaxy and blow up Borg cubes because they feel like it. Just like the citizens of the United States gave themselves the authority to invade Iraq. Point is, in a post-scarcity economy the scope and powers and expectations and authority and accountability of a “government” are going to be radically different than they are today, just like the governments of today are very different than the governments of the feudal era. Things that we consider essential to legitimate authority, like, say, voting, might be considered as anachronistic as the divine right of kings. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/71 "2013-12-03T23:22:28Z")
Oh, yeah, if the battlefield commission weren’t official, then it’s just a matter of the first officer to show up. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/72 "2013-12-03T23:56:15Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Quick check shows he was 29, Shatner was 35. I guess that’s not terribly different. The same goes for the rest of the cast, for the most part. (All ages are approximate - I just used the years, not the exact birthdates, or release dates.) Zach Quinto - 32 Leonard Nimoy - 35 Zoe Saldana - 29 Nichelle Nichols - 34 Karl Urban - 38 Deforest Kelley - 44 Simon Pegg - 39 James Doohan - 46 A VERY interesting case: John Cho - 37 George Takei - 29 And the one case that fits the usual claims: Anton Yelchin - 20 Walter Koenig - 30 (Chekov the character is also significantly deaged. Although he’s actually older than the TOS Chekov would have been at the same objective date.) I also suspect that aside from Takei and Cho the movie-verse actors are actually closer in age to the characters, though that’s harder to calculate given the changes in the order of events, and I’m not feeling up to it at the moment. (Especially Chekov - Yelchin was certainly closer to 17 year old Movie-Chekov than Koenig was to presumably early-20s TOS-Chekov.) ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/73 "2013-12-04T02:07:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I had checked out of the movie LONG before that point–hell, when Kirk was marooned on Trek!Hoth, I was rooting out loud for the ice dinosaurs to kill and eat him, and not in that order. But at the end of the movie, I was hoping against hope that he’d be expecting a command of his own but get only a promotion to lieutenant j.g., and that Pike would tell him, "Look, kid, you’re a genius and all, but the very fact that you THINK you have the experience to command a ship on a day to day basis demonstrates that you do not, in fact, have enough experience. Take the Conn job and be grateful–and remember that you have to call Spock “Sir.” While that would have been satisfying in so many way, it would not allowed the narrative to have flowed as it did. The vast majority of the viewing public want Kirk-Mk2 to exist as well as Spock-Mk2. The viewing public know these guys as something akin to archetypes. In fact, if you add in McCoy, you get a remarkable example of Freudian archetypes right out of the textbook. The three new actors do a really good job of portraying those characters. Yes, the idea of Kirk tacking control of a multi-trillion-credit starship because “Pike said so” is ludicrous, but so is FTL. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/74 "2013-12-04T02:47:12Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > While that would have been satisfying in so many way, it would not allowed the narrative to have flowed as it did. The vast majority of the viewing public want Kirk-Mk2 to exist as well as Spock-Mk2. The viewing public know these guys as something akin to archetypes. In fact, if you add in McCoy, you get a remarkable example of Freudian archetypes right out of the textbook. The three new actors do a really good job of portraying those characters. > > Yes, the idea of Kirk tacking control of a multi-trillion-credit starship because “Pike said so” is ludicrous, but so is FTL. It’s stupid. :rolleyes: FTL is Science Fiction, Young Kirk “tacking” control is money making. But then, some folks fall for it, and the guy makes money. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/75 "2013-12-04T02:54:41Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You keep saying that, and it remains ridiculous… You go, **Skald**! As I’ve argued elsewhere before on the Dope, Starfleet has the power of imprisonment (after court-martial conviction) and potential death (when ordered on dangerous missions) over its members, and enforces the law against Federation civilians (just ask Harry Mudd), as well as providing exploratory, diplomatic and military services. It clearly isn’t just a social club or bowling league. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They forcibly evicted folks, trading territory with the…the guys with long, scaly necks. Cardassians: [Journey's End (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Journey's_End_(episode)) > [@Loach](#): > > …And who says the academy is four years?.. It’s said to be a four-year institution in the first J.J. Abrams movie, when Kirk boasted he’d get through it in three. > [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > The same goes for the rest of the cast, for the most part. > > (All ages are approximate - I just used the years, not the exact birthdates, or release dates.)… > > Deforest Kelley - 44… Holy crap, I would’ve guessed he was in his early fifties! I see from your list that I’m now older than everyone in the TOS cast was when the show started. Boy, do I feel _ancient_… ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/76 "2013-12-04T03:09:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Holy crap, I would’ve guessed he [Deforest Kelly] was in his early fifties! Hah, same here. Although I typoed there - he would actually have been 46, not 44. Still younger than he looked. (And I’ve caught up, agewise, to everyone from TOS except Kelly and Doohan, which is WEIRD.) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/77 "2013-12-04T03:13:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, this is sort of what I’m getting at. In some DS9 episode that I watched recently, they explain their uniform colors to someone - blue for sciences and medical, yellow for engineering and security, and red for command. … And purple for janitorial! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/78 "2013-12-04T03:15:51Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > … > > We come in peace (SHOOT TO KILL, SHOOT TO KILL) “Scotty beam me up!” ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/79 "2013-12-04T03:24:59Z")
I really don’t know how things work in the Federation Starfleet, but I do have some personal experience of how things work in the United States Coast Guard. I submit that the US Navy shares some of these methods but I can’t say for certain. During the summer between their 3rd and 4th years, midshipmen from the CG Academy are placed on TDY (Temporary Duty) to Coast Guard Cutters where they serve as crewmembers. _ **Enlisted crew members** _. Prior to the middies arriving, there’s a all hands briefing where the line is drawn, so to speak. The middies are to be treated as any newly reportid Seaman/Fireman Apprentice fresh from Recruit training. Which means if there’s something dirty that needs to be cleaned, heavy that has to be moved, or has to be dealt with in the bilges, you find a middie to do it. Or at least assist. And keep in mind that next year they’ll be Commissioned Officers.\* Unlike the situation the Commandant of the Mobile Infantry Officer’s School related to Cadet Juan Rico and his classmates in Heinlein’s “Star Troopers”, the CGA midshipmen are NOT given temporary commissions. They are at the absolute bottom of the chain of command. If, by some huge mischance the cutter lost it’s officers, the senior warrant officer would take temporary command of the cutter. And if the warrants were also gone, the senior CPO would take command. There is no way a midshipman could get command. But this was real life. I can’t see how it would relate to Starfleet. Just sayin’. \*I had a friend who was an EM3 (Electrician’s Mate 3rd Class). During a Midshipman Cruise, the only female middie was assigned to assist her. Since the middie had no EM type training, mostly she carried stuff and passed the proper tools to my friend. At one point, my friend had to do something which involved going into the bilges. So of course, she tolod the middie to go in there to do what was necessary. The middie didn’t want to go into the bilges (I really can’t blame her, nobody wants to do that) and whined about it. So my friend ordered her in there. Well, the task got completed and eventually the cruise was over and middie went back to the CGA and next spring graduated and received her commission. And orders back to the ship my friend was on as the Assitant Engineering Officer. And when she spotted my friend, she thought she’d get some revenge. Once my friend recognized what was going on, she had a talk with the Engineer (who was a pretty nice and funny\*\* guy) who promptly clamped down hard on the Ensign and her plan of revenge. \*\* When the Engineer (the officer responsible for, among other things, the watertight integrity of the ship) comes up on deck, puts on a Mae West, climbs into a lifeboat, and spends a couple hours reading a book, some people get nervous. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367/80 "2013-12-04T03:25:20Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Cardassians: [Journey's End (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Journey's_End_(episode)) Thank you, it was a test, and you passed with flying colours. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-battlefield-commissions-re-a-ds9-episode-valiant/675367.md?page=5)