# Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/1 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")
[Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship.](https://www.navytimes.com/articles/us-navy-destroyer-collides-with-merchant-ship) How does something like this even happen? Granted, it was 2:00 am and dark, but both ships had to have lights on and lookouts posted. One would think making sure _any_ vessel doesn’t get too close would be a major component of protecting a Navy ship from terrorist attack. It seems like people would have to be all over this situation long before there was actual contact. I assume this is a career ending deal for the Captain of the Naval ship, no matter what, but who really screwed the pooch here? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/2 "2017-06-16T23:33:32Z")
That’s what the court martial will decide. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/3 "2017-06-16T23:44:18Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s what the court martial will decide. The career-limiting of the commanding officer is pretty much a given, I’d expect. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/4 "2017-06-17T00:03:25Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > How does something like this even happen? Granted, it was 2:00 am and dark, but both ships had to have lights on and lookouts posted. Even better than that, both should have radar and AIS showing the position of every ship in the area and transmitting their own. There’s really no way to know what happened right now. The damage to the container ship is to her port side bow while the damage to the Fitzgerald is starboard just ahead of the bridge. The container ship may have turned into the destroyer, or the destroyer may have failed to yield right of way to the container ship and crossed in front of it. That’s a busy sea lane so it’s always possible one of them turned to avoid some other ship. video showing damage to both ships: [https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20170617\_11/](https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20170617_11/) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/5 "2017-06-17T00:18:23Z")
Apparently, Navy vessels don’t usually use [AIS.](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/10/21/2003630571) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/6 "2017-06-17T00:57:00Z")
You guys realize that those things are on the ocean, right? Nobody’s going to be stopping or even turning on a dime out there. Both captains are supposed to be familiar with the rules of the road at sea, how the sea state affects a ship’s progress, and what hazards are in the ship’s path. Given tbat you’re dealing with two humans, mistakes can happen. Also, it is not necessarily the ship’s commanding officer directing the helm. That’s how it happens. The key, really, is did the captains do what was reasonable to avoid a collision. Court-martial is a bit of a jump. First will be an investigation, then a recommendation for or against court-martial or non-judicial punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/7 "2017-06-17T01:14:29Z")
I’m reading a book about cyber war right now. Compromised computer system of some sort? ---
**Author:** ![Ad\_Astra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Ad\_Astra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ad_Astra)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/8 "2017-06-17T01:55:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Apparently, Navy vessels don’t usually use [AIS.](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/10/21/2003630571) If I read that link correctly, it only addresses Taiwanese Navy use of AIS. However, it’s generally true - in my experience, US warships do not \*transmit \*on AIS (that is, they don’t send their position, course, destination, etc. out to the general boating/shipping public). They do, however, _recieve_ AIS, and can use that information for contact management. Whether or not the ACX Crystal was using AIS hasn’t been addressed in any of the articles I’ve read. What seems to be clear (from the damage pattern, at least) is that per the RoR, Fitzgerald was the give-way vessel and had responsibility to remain clear of the Crystal; that doesn’t absolve Crystal from partial responsibility for the collision, but it would explain why it seems she was damaged where she was. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/9 "2017-06-17T02:17:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Also, it is not necessarily the ship’s commanding officer directing the helm. In fact, given that the collision occurred around 0230 local, it’s quite probable that both captains were asleep until the alarms were sounded. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/10 "2017-06-17T02:46:14Z")
> [@Ad\_Astra](#): > > If I read that link correctly, it only addresses Taiwanese Navy use of AIS. However, it’s generally true - in my experience, US warships do not \*transmit \*on AIS (that is, they don’t send their position, course, destination, etc. out to the general boating/shipping public). They do, however, _recieve_ AIS, and can use that information for contact management. Whether or not the ACX Crystal was using AIS hasn’t been addressed in any of the articles I’ve read. > > What seems to be clear (from the damage pattern, at least) is that per the RoR, Fitzgerald was the give-way vessel and had responsibility to remain clear of the Crystal; that doesn’t absolve Crystal from partial responsibility for the collision, but it would explain why it seems she was damaged where she was. I would hope the Navy would use AIS in a crowded shipping lane but I think you’re right. A lot of Navies transmit under generic identification like “UK Navy Ship” but apparently the US Navy either doesn’t use it at all or not very often. The ACX Crystal’s track appears on [marinetraffic.com](http://marinetraffic.com) so they were probably transmitting AIS. [Here](https://ibb.co/fqB605) is their track during the collision but I’m not sure of the timing. Reports say it happened at about 2:20am local time. That would be 17:20 am UTC but they appear to be in the middle of a straightaway at that time. There are several other points that look more like they’d be related to a collision. I’m guessing it’s right before that little loop they did around 17:40. They slowed way down after that. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/11 "2017-06-17T03:00:42Z")
A destroyer may well be keeping all electromagnetic emissions to a minimum which could mean no lights, no radar, no radio going out. It’s still surprising that no personnel aboard the destroyer saw lights or the IR signature of the container ship. I guess we shouldn’t presume that the civil servants whose work is hidden are anymore competent and diligent than the civil servants whose work is public. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/12 "2017-06-17T04:11:03Z")
Instruments can give a false confidence. They aren’t infallible. This collision occurred 45 miles south of Nantucket Island. > **[Ships collide off Nantucket | July 25, 1956 | HISTORY](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ships-collide-off-nantucket)** > > At 11:10 p.m., 45 miles south of Nantucket Island, the Italian ocean liner Andrea Doria and the Swedish ocean liner Stockholm collide in a heavy Atlantic fog. Fifty-one passengers and crew were killed in the collision, which ripped a great hole in... > [@](#): > > On the night of July 25, 1956, the Stockholm was just beginning its journey home to Sweden from New York, while the Andrea Doria was steaming in the opposite direction. The Italian liner had been in an intermittent fog since midafternoon, but Captain Piero Calami only slightly reduced his speed, relying on his ship’s radar to get him to his destination safely and on schedule. The Stockholm, meanwhile, was directed north of its recommended route by Captain H. Gunnar Nordenson, who risked encountering westbound vessels in the name of reducing travel time. The Stockholm also had radar and expected no difficulty in navigating past approaching vessels. It failed to anticipate, however, that a ship like the Andrea Doria could be hidden until the last few minutes by a fogbank. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/13 "2017-06-17T09:54:00Z")
From the pictures, it looks like the US ship was rammed by the merchant ship. That a US Navy ship allowed itself to be rammed is going to be of considerable interest to the Board of Enquiry and terrorists. What if the merchant ship had been loaded with explosives? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/14 "2017-06-17T11:58:47Z")
Wow, to this untrained eye, that destroyer looks took it took a shitload of damage! And now it’s being reported that 7 sailors are missing. > **[The stricken destroyer Fitzgerald has returned home, but 7 sailors are still...](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/06/17/the-stricken-destroyer-fitzgerald-has-returned-home-but-7-sailors-are-still-missing/)** > > Divers will assess the damage and try to access spaces that flooded when Fitzgerald collided with a merchant ship four-times its size. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/15 "2017-06-17T12:08:50Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > The ACX Crystal’s track appears on [marinetraffic.com](http://marinetraffic.com) so they were probably transmitting AIS. [Here](https://ibb.co/fqB605) is their track during the collision but I’m not sure of the timing. Reports say it happened at about 2:20am local time. That would be 17:20 am UTC but they appear to be in the middle of a straightaway at that time. There are several other points that look more like they’d be related to a collision. I’m guessing it’s right before that little loop they did around 17:40. They slowed way down after that. That is really cool. It’s hard to see where the time tag corresponds to on your screenshot though. Where the ship was traveling east and suddenly turns south slightly, could that be an attempt at an evasive maneuver just before the collision? And the ship looped back to the scene of the collision, perhaps to render aid? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/16 "2017-06-17T12:17:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Court-martial is a bit of a jump. First will be an investigation, then a recommendation for or against court-martial or non-judicial punishment. Court-martials are routine, even for running aground with no significant damage. It is inconceivable that there would be no court-martial for a collision with another ship, with seven sailors missing, and probably millions of dollars of damage to the US ship. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/17 "2017-06-17T12:20:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > … > Given tbat you’re dealing with two humans, mistakes can happen. Also, it is not necessarily the ship’s commanding officer directing the helm. That’s how it happens. The key, really, is did the captains do what was reasonable to avoid a collision. > > Court-martial is a bit of a jump. First will be an investigation, then a recommendation for or against court-martial or non-judicial punishment. > [@SCAdian](#): > > In fact, given that the collision occurred around 0230 local, it’s quite probable that both captains were asleep until the alarms were sounded. An unfortunate feature of the US Navy (and USAF in my era) is that commanders do not survive mistakes or even bad luck that result in significant accidents. Whether or not they were physically involved in the final minutes or moments is immaterial. There will be a board of inquiry, and even if it finds that alien space bats teleported the freighter from 30 miles out to just 3 feet short of the collision, the USN Captain will be relieved. Why? Because everything that happens on or to the ship, good or bad, is 100% his responsibility, period. This will be with significant prejudice to his career. Depending on age, rank, etc., he may be able to retire on schedule with his benefits intact. But meantime he won’t be going anywhere but into an administrative holding pattern. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/18 "2017-06-17T12:48:55Z")
By the way, I can see why there would be injuries or deaths, but why would there be so many “missing”? Were they likely thrown overboard, or more likely to be trapped (dead or alive) in the crushed or flooded parts of the ship? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/19 "2017-06-17T13:11:23Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > By the way, I can see why there would be injuries or deaths, but why would there be so many “missing”? Were they likely thrown overboard, or more likely to be trapped (dead or alive) in the crushed or flooded parts of the ship? Probably both, there are usually sponson watches and in an unexpected collision they might well be throw overboard and based on the video linked to by **Fubaya** , there could well be bodies in the section of the ship crushed that have not been recovered yet. Additionally, anyone on deck could be thrown off the destroyer. I know my ship (USS Ranger) ran into a supply ship (USS [WICHITA](http://www.navysite.de/aor/aor1.htm)) during a routine re-supply in 1983 but in some ways that makes more sense as 2 huge ships were running in parallel only a short distance from each other. But collisions happen, in 1979 the Ranger also ran into a tanker. I don’t know much about that one. I’m sure these collisions sadly happen on a regular basis, this is just a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/20 "2017-06-17T13:28:30Z")
From [**pg 81** of 86 of this PDF](https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/NavalAccidents1945-1988.pdf), I see there were 456 collisions between 1945 and 1988 for the USN. While I hope the rate has dropped, I think it is safe to assume they are still happening on a regular basis. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=2)