# Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/181 "2017-08-18T02:45:25Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Agree that in the USN the CO is 99.9% always sacrificed. The fact they went beyond that and canned not only CO but also the XO and even the senior enlisted guy is probably not unprecedented but is pretty rare. Probably the XO and senior enlisted guy got canned because they were the ones who actually f’ed up. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/182 "2017-08-18T05:09:48Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Agree that in the USN the CO is 99.9% always sacrificed. The fact they went beyond that and canned not only CO but also the XO and even the senior enlisted guy is probably not unprecedented but is pretty rare. > [@Princhester](#): > > Probably the XO and senior enlisted guy got canned because they were the ones who actually f’ed up. This is my thought too. The top monkey always bites it… But - Someone on the bridge said “Hey, let’s turn across that oncoming ship” and someone else did so instead of saying “Are you really sure you want to do that?” Unless both were so oblivious they did not notice the fact that if all things stayed the same after their maneuver, they’d get run over. (Who was the admiral with the little sign on his desk - “A collision at sea can ruin your whole day”?) ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/183 "2017-08-18T05:14:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > But doesn’t this just mean they get cushy desk jobs rather than being thrown out of the Navy? They passed over for any promotion. They know it the Navy knows it. The Navy expects them to resign in proper time. If they don’t it will not be a cushy desk job. But some dirty job that no one wants. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/184 "2017-08-18T08:10:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I wonder if we will see any published report giving the details. The NY Times has posted the US Navy report [online](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/17/world/asia/document-navy-report-on-uss-fitzgerald.html) (also .pdf on [DocumentCloud](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3934451/Navy-Report-on-USS-Fitzgerald.pdf)). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/185 "2017-08-18T08:32:36Z")
Thanks, but I was meaning a report about the cause of the collision. That report is just about the aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/186 "2017-08-18T10:48:25Z")
[CNN](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/17/politics/uss-fitzgerald-leadership-removed/index.html) is showing a video clip with the Pentagon correspondent saying that the the preliminary finding is that the US Navy was at fault, that the crew on the bridge knew the other ship was approaching, but failed to sound warnings. They did nothing and stayed on course. They questions as to why is not the key questions the further investigations will center on. She says that Navy sources are saying that it came narrowly close to the ship sinking and losing the entire crew at sea. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/187 "2017-08-18T12:54:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Probably the XO and senior enlisted guy got canned because they were the ones who actually f’ed up. XO shares with the Captain responsibility for the state of training of all aboard - so it makes sense that he is considered partially responsible for poor performance, even if he wasn’t directly involved (though he may well have been). I’d guess the MCPO would have to have done something specific (and bad) for him to be relieved over this. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/188 "2017-08-18T13:05:12Z")
(Missed edit deadline.) Further reading says that both CO and XO were asleep when collision happened. It’s unclear why CO wasn’t awakened, which would have been standard procedure when maneuvering in crowded waters. Had no collision happened, but the CO found out later that he’d not been called, the OOD would have been in very hot water. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/189 "2017-08-18T13:21:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Agree that in the USN the CO is 99.9% always sacrificed. The fact they went beyond that and canned not only CO but also the XO and even the senior enlisted guy is probably not unprecedented but is pretty rare. An interesting example from 1908 (see the third paragraph under “Pre-World War I”): [USS Decatur (DD-5) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Decatur_(DD-5)) ---
**Author:** ![Didactylos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Didactylos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didactylos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/190 "2017-08-18T14:07:05Z")
> [@Billdo](#): > > The NY Times has posted the US Navy report [online](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/17/world/asia/document-navy-report-on-uss-fitzgerald.html) (also .pdf on [DocumentCloud](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3934451/Navy-Report-on-USS-Fitzgerald.pdf)). On page 22 there’s a timeline with this interesting entry: > [@](#): > > 0000 FTZ underway in the Sea of Japan on the way to Subic Bay, Philippines. She was on a course of 230 degrees (True) at 20 knots with modified ZEBRA set throughout the ship. The ship was darkened, with the exception of exterior lights required for navigation. The Commanding Officer was off of the bridge The Sea of Japan is east of Japan, no where near the collision which happened off the west coast of Japan. This unfortunately sows doubt about the general reliability of the info in the rest of the report. But if the given 230 dg COG is true (and didn’t change significantly in the 1½ hour until the collision with Crystal), we know a bit more about what happened. The Crystal AIS plot showed a 70 dg steady bearing until just before the collision. So it was indeed a crossing situation, in fact close to head-on rather than close to overtaking which many had guessed. ETA: And with Crystal as the stand-on vessel. If the Crystal had, as claimed by some, no one at the controls when the crash happened, it would have damage on the starboard side of the bow and been deflected to a course somewhere NE. Since it actually had damage on the port side of the bow and ended up on SW bearing, it must have taken evasive action and turned starboard as COLREGS bids. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/191 "2017-08-18T14:25:26Z")
> [@Didactylos](#): > > The Sea of Japan is east of Japan, no where near the collision which happened off the west coast of Japan. I think you are confused. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/192 "2017-08-18T15:40:18Z")
Didactylos’s point still stands - the collision was nowhere near the Sea of Japan, so that part is wrong. (Sea of Japan is west of Japan, collision happened on the east coast.) ---
**Author:** ![Didactylos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Didactylos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didactylos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/193 "2017-08-18T17:16:02Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Didactylos’s point still stands - the collision was nowhere near the Sea of Japan, so that part is wrong. (Sea of Japan is west of Japan, collision happened on the east coast.) C’est la vie. Fight one piece of ignorance, inadvertently introduce two more. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/194 "2017-08-18T20:28:04Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > XO shares with the Captain responsibility for the state of training of all aboard - so it makes sense that he is considered partially responsible for poor performance, even if he wasn’t directly involved (though he may well have been). > > I’d guess the MCPO would have to have done something specific (and bad) for him to be relieved over this. The [CMC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_master_chief_petty_officer) (Command Master Chief, aka SEA or Senior Enlisted Advisor) is also responsible for training and discipline. If the fleet commander determines there is a “loss of confidence” in the CMC’s ability to perform his duties, then the proper response is to remove him from his position. **Snnipe 70E** : “Cushy desk job”? Well, one may not retire while facing disciplinary action, so that may not be so cushy after all. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/195 "2017-08-18T20:59:08Z")
When the battleship _Missouri_ ran aground in Chesapeake Bay in 1950 the Captain, the navigator, and the operations officer were sentenced to be reduced so far in the promotions list that their careers were effectively ended. The lieutenant in charge of the Combat Information Center was given a letter of reprimand. The XO was not court-martialed, having tried to warn the captain that he was standing into danger. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/196 "2017-08-18T22:26:36Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > When the battleship _Missouri_ ran aground in Chesapeake Bay in 1950 the Captain, the navigator, and the operations officer were sentenced to be reduced so far in the promotions list that their careers were effectively ended. The lieutenant in charge of the Combat Information Center was given a letter of reprimand. The XO was not court-martialed, having tried to warn the captain that he was standing into danger. It’s worth noting that happened shortly before the Uniform Code of Military Justice came into effect. The penalties available to courts were a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/197 "2017-08-19T00:11:25Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > There’s [a training facility on a lake in France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Revel) where captains are trained on scale models that mimic the behavior of large ships on smaller distance and time scales; their model ships look to be about 20 feet long, but they weigh many thousands of pounds and are equipped with a motor of just a couple of horsepower. Some good [YouTube videos](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=port+revel+shiphandling+training+centre) showing what odd things happen in shallow waters and near other ships. It’s unexpectedly cute to watch grown men in tiny ships charge towards each other… lol. On a semi-related note, do you know if computer simulations are any good at simulating naval physics? There’s a whole world of flight sims, but most naval sims I’ve seen are more concerned with the strategy, tactics, crew management, etc. rather than the physical movement of the ships. ---
**Author:** ![JHBoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/13edae/32.png) [@JHBoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JHBoom)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/198 "2017-08-19T02:41:58Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > On a semi-related note, do you know if computer simulations are any good at simulating naval physics? There’s a whole world of flight sims, but most naval sims I’ve seen are more concerned with the strategy, tactics, crew management, etc. rather than the physical movement of the ships. I’ve seen a couple videos recently that show USN submariners learning how to conn the new _Virginia_-class boats in simulators; I’d assume the sim physics are similar to the real boat. I recall that in the wake of the _Exxon Valdez_ disaster, the maritime industry made a big push for the increased use of accurate simulators to better-train crews on how a supertanker handles. I also recall seeing that large cruise ship crews are also trained on simulators. The technology is definitely out there, it’s probably more a question of whether it’s use is widespread enough to make an appreciable difference. However, as you might imagine, any simulator is only as good as the data used to build the physics model. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/199 "2017-08-19T03:12:19Z")
[Ship Simulator Extremes](http://www.shipsim.com/) purports to be a ship simulator that runs on your home computer, from small fishing trawlers to supertankers. Never having played it, I can make no assessment as to the accuracy of the simulation. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/200 "2017-08-19T22:26:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The [CMC](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_master_chief_petty_officer) (Command Master Chief, aka SEA or Senior Enlisted Advisor) is also responsible for training and discipline. If the fleet commander determines there is a “loss of confidence” in the CMC’s ability to perform his duties, then the proper response is to remove him from his position. > > **Snnipe 70E** : “Cushy desk job”? Well, one may not retire while facing disciplinary action, so that may not be so cushy after all. You completely missed the point I was making. Past Tense asked \*\*Originally Posted by PastTense View Post But doesn’t this just mean they get cushy desk jobs rather than being thrown out of the Navy? \*\* My point was they would not get a “Cushy desk Job.” after the investigation was over if they were found at fault. They would be expected to resign their commissions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=11)