# Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/201 "2017-08-19T22:36:31Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > On a semi-related note, do you know if computer simulations are any good at simulating naval physics? There’s a whole world of flight sims, but most naval sims I’ve seen are more concerned with the strategy, tactics, crew management, etc. rather than the physical movement of the ships. Yes there is one at The California Maritime Academy in Vallejo California. I have been on the “bridge” while a simulation of going through the SF Bay. The only clue is the stairs behind you when standing on the bridge. In wrapped around the “bridge” almost 360 degrees is the bay and above the sky. It can simulate different types of ships, conditions, locations, and other shipping. It has been on national news a few times after ship collisions. It was used to determine just what went wrong when the tanker hit the Bay Bridge. The Coast Guard and the regulating body for pilots used it to make judgments against pilot, Captain, and mates. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/202 "2017-08-19T22:50:42Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > You completely missed the point I was making. > > Past Tense asked > > \*\*Originally Posted by PastTense View Post > But doesn’t this just mean they get cushy desk jobs rather than being thrown out of the Navy? \*\* > My point was they would not get a “Cushy desk Job.” after the investigation was over if they were found at fault. They would be expected to resign their commissions. “Expected to resign their commissions” is nonsense, and, of course, is not an available punishment under the UCMJ. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/203 "2017-08-19T23:53:20Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “Expected to resign their commissions” is nonsense, and, of course, is not an available punishment under the UCMJ. After a quick look, nobody in Navy and in their right mind will expect them to resign even if it was an available punishment. The skipper was commissioned out of NROTC in 1999. The exec was commissioned in Jan 2000. I expect them to fight tooth and nail to avoid discharge until at least they qualify for retirement in 2019/2020. Not that it may be left up to them. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/204 "2017-08-21T00:02:05Z")
Here we go again. Another Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. [https://www.google.com/amp/wavy.com/2017/08/20/uss-john-mccain-collision/amp/](https://www.google.com/amp/wavy.com/2017/08/20/uss-john-mccain-collision/amp/) > **[Home](https://www.live5news.com/?contentguid=QPDqCb2Q)** > > Live 5 News WCSC is South Carolina’s breaking news and severe weather forecast leader for Charleston, Berkeley, Dorchester, Colleton, Williamsburg, Georgetown and the Lowcountry. > [@](#): > > The guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain was involved in a collision with the merchant vessel Alnic MC while underway east of Singapore and the Strait of Malacca, according to officials with U.S. 7th Fleet Public Affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/205 "2017-08-21T01:34:39Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > It’s unclear why CO wasn’t awakened, which would have been standard procedure when maneuvering in crowded waters. Had no collision happened, but the CO found out later that he’d not been called, the OOD would have been in very hot water. As I think I said upthread, those waters were not particularly crowded. If they were considered crowded, the CO would be awake 24 hours a day. > [@Reply](#): > > It’s unexpectedly cute to watch grown men in tiny ships charge towards each other… lol. There is a similar facility in Australia. I know a couple of the guys that run it. It is generally regarded as (as you say) rather silly looking but completely invaluable. You can practice, over and over again in the space of a few hours, something that - in real life - you would be lucky to have the chance to do more than a few times a year. > [@](#): > > On a semi-related note, do you know if computer simulations are any good at simulating naval physics? There’s a whole world of flight sims, but most naval sims I’ve seen are more concerned with the strategy, tactics, crew management, etc. rather than the physical movement of the ships. Yes one of the latest and hence one of the best in the world\* is in Brisbane. I’ve been in it and played with it. I successfully rammed the Statue of Liberty with a full size container vessel ;). It is stunningly real. The platform on which you stand is not moveable but the illusion is so complete that you would swear it was rocking with the swell and rolling as you turn. The facility has (IIRC) two other simulators in the same facility that similate tugs, so that all three can be run in the same simulation at the same time, with the tugs and ship working together. \*For about five minutes until someone builds a new one, which they probably have by now > [@aceplace57](#): > > Here we go again. Another Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. Hit a tanker this time. Faaark. No oil spilled by the sound of it, but Great Og would the proverbial have hit the fan if it had. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/206 "2017-08-21T01:35:59Z")
Both ships are the same class and from the same squadron. That’s one heck of a coincidence . > [@](#): > > USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62), named for United States Navy officer Lieutenant William Charles … She is now home-ported at Yokosuka Naval Base in Yokosuka, Japan, and is part of Destroyer Squadron 15. > [@](#): > > USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) is an Arleigh Burke- class destroyer in the United States Navy. … The ship is part of Destroyer Squadron 15. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/207 "2017-08-21T02:28:06Z")
> [@Didactylos](#): > > The Sea of Japan is east of Japan, no where near the collision which happened off the west coast of Japan. You are correct that the report is wrong in stating the collision was in the Sea of Japan, but you’ve confused east and west here. The Sea of Japan is west of Japan and the collision occurred to the east of Japan. > [@](#): > > But if the given 230 dg COG is true (and didn’t change significantly in the 1½ hour until the collision with Crystal), we know a bit more about what happened. > > The Crystal AIS plot showed a 70 dg steady bearing until just before the collision. So it was indeed a crossing situation, in fact close to head-on rather than close to overtaking which many had guessed. > > ETA: And with Crystal as the stand-on vessel. > > If the Crystal had, as claimed by some, no one at the controls when the crash happened, it would have damage on the starboard side of the bow and been deflected to a course somewhere NE. Since it actually had damage on the port side of the bow and ended up on SW bearing, it must have taken evasive action and turned starboard as COLREGS bids. Firstly if the Crystal was on 70° and the Fitzgerald was on 230° then I agree that they were 20° or so from head on, which counts as “crossing” (with head on probably where within +/- 3° of reciprocal courses). I also agree that the Fitzgerald was the give-way vessel and Crystal was obliged to maintain course and speed, until it became clear that the Fitzgerald was not going to give way. I certainly agree that the theory that the Crystal had no one on the bridge is fanciful, for the reasons you give plus many others. It’s conspiracy theory dreck dreamed up by people with no clue. If the Fitzgerald was on 230° pre collision, it fucked up in a fairly standard way. The fact the vessels hit stbd/port means they were on similar courses by the time they hit. We know from the AIS track that the Crystal turned about 90° stbd at or around the time of collision (which is precisely what it should have done), so presumably the Fitzgerald tried to turn to port but wasn’t able to turn tightly enough to get around. _If_ this is correct - and info is sketchy at this point - then it’s a fairly classic way of fucking up. The Crystal spots the Fitzgerald, correctly figures the Crystal is stand on and keeps going. The Fitzgerald either doesn’t initially spot the Crystal, or (IME more likely) does but thinks the Fitzgerald will cross safely ahead. Then the Fitz bridge team starts to realise it’s going to be too close. What they should do at this point is make a robust turn to starboard. However, what can happen is that at this point the bridge team is kind of fixed on the idea of crossing ahead, so what they do is _turn a bit to port_ to increase the angle and get across more quickly. At some point the Crystal realises the Fitzgerald are completely fucking it up and turn hard to starboard to try to avoid the situation, but because the Fitzgerald are in a fixed mindset of trying to get across the Crystal’s bow, the Fitzgerald’s bridge team (either in panic or not wanting (in a naval command situation) to be seen to admit they’ve got it wrong) they just keep trying to turn to port tighter and tighter, then… Blammo. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/208 "2017-08-21T03:33:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “Expected to resign their commissions” is nonsense, and, of course, is not an available punishment under the UCMJ. You are right not part of the UCMJ. They can not be ordered to resign. It is tradition. If a Naval Officer is passed over twice for promotion they are expected to resign. Other wise the office levels would become stagnet and not would be able to be promoted. If an officer does not resign he can expect to have the worse duty. Artic two man radar stations and such. Not nonsense just life. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/209 "2017-08-21T05:06:56Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > You are right not part of the UCMJ. They can not be ordered to resign. It is tradition. If a Naval Officer is passed over twice for promotion they are expected to resign. Other wise the office levels would become stagnet and not would be able to be promoted. If an officer does not resign he can expect to have the worse duty. Artic two man radar stations and such. Not nonsense just life. [Nope.](http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/generalboardinfo/Pages/StatusNonSelect.aspx) And those arctic and antarctic stations are staffed by screened volunteers. You’re simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/210 "2017-08-21T05:18:48Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > You are right not part of the UCMJ. They can not be ordered to resign. It is tradition.\*\* If a Naval Officer is passed over twice for promotion they are expected to resign. Other wise the office levels would become stagnet and not would be able to be promoted.\*\* If an officer does not resign he can expect to have the worse duty. Artic two man radar stations and such. Not nonsense just life. I’ve heard this before. The military really can’t promote someone past a “stalled” officer? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/211 "2017-08-21T06:30:33Z")
What happened to “up or out”? Can’t the military simply discharge servicemembers who aren’t getting promoted? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/212 "2017-08-21T07:13:12Z")
[10 Sailors Missing After U.S. Destroyer Collides With Oil Tanker Off Singapore](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/20/world/asia/uss-john-mccain-collision-merchant-ship.html) FYI New thread no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/213 "2017-08-21T07:39:11Z")
Maybe Voltaire had it right and the USA should execute an admiral or two as the English did with Admiral Byng - _pour encourager les autres_ ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/214 "2017-08-21T08:30:41Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The crew on the bridge knew the other ship was approaching, but failed to sound warnings. They did nothing and stayed on course. They questions as to why is not the key questions the further investigations will center on. The question as to why the crew did nothing at all to avoid the other ship nor warn the other ship IS going to be the main issue in the enquiries. Survivability of the sleeping quarters in such a collision may be a secondary issue.But this sort of collision nearly splits and sinks a destroyer… it may just be luck of the draw as to the bow profile of the other ship… USS McCain now having a very similar wound below the waterline and pretty much the place midships, below the forward part of the superstructure… the other ships underwater bulb has crushed in the side rather than cutting it. Just luck as to how it hit. If the other ship is heavy in the water then the bulb may be deeper and hits more with the bow stem than the bulb, the bow stem then acts like a knife . ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/215 "2017-08-21T09:05:10Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > The question as to why the crew did nothing at all to avoid the other ship nor warn the other ship IS going to be the main issue in the enquiries. I think it is highly unlikely they did nothing, unless the information (per my last post) is completely wrong. Which I suppose it could be. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/216 "2017-08-21T13:29:34Z")
Any possibility that someone higher up the chain of command will face consequences for two for their ships’ commanding officers being incompetent? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/217 "2017-08-21T13:49:34Z")
I suspect an admiral or two may be disciplined or demoted. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/218 "2017-08-21T14:04:49Z")
Maybe I am just paranoid but what if some agent on the world scene has figured out how compromise Arleigh Burke radar systems? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/219 "2017-08-21T14:08:52Z")
I’m getting tired of repeating myself here and in other places, so [I’ll just link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20428545&postcount=16). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/220 "2017-08-21T15:13:35Z")
These collisions are worse than I first realized. Four this year and all in the 7th fleet! Does the Navy need to review it’s training? It seems likely there will be a shake up in the 7th fleets command. You’d certainly expect the McCain crew to be extra alert after Fitz incident. I’d hope the captain wouldn’t be snoozing in his bunk this time. > **[Five sailors injured, 10 missing after U.S. Navy destroyer collides with a...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/another-us-navy-destroyer-collides-with-a-merchant-ship-rescue-efforts-underway/2017/08/20/c42f15b2-8602-11e7-9ce7-9e175d8953fa_story.html)** > > Rescue efforts off the coast of Singapore are underway to find the crew missing from the USS John S. McCain. > [@](#): > > The collision marks the fourth time this year a Navy vessel with the 7th Fleet has been involved in a major mishap, an embarrassing string that has prompted the service to remove several senior officers from command. > > The others include the deadly collision involving the USS Fitzgerald on June 17, a May 9 incident in which the guided-missile cruiser USS Lake Champlain collided with a South Korean fishing vessel east of the Korean Peninsula and a Jan. 31 mishap in which the guided-missile cruiser USS Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay, near its home port of Yokosuka. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=12)