# Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/21 "2017-06-17T13:38:53Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Were they likely thrown overboard, or more likely to be trapped (dead or alive) in the crushed or flooded parts of the ship? Well yes either of those. By the way the sleeping quarters is ripped open, it looks like some may have been up against the wall when the two boats seperated ,but with no bed or floor beneath them. Now the bent in metal forms a ramp toward the ocean, so the person or corpse then falls into the ocean. So it seems that they have not counted corpses on board, and have little hope for anyone in the ocean. They are searching the ocean, but opening up the crushed metal may wait for forensics… There may be something unexpected to document … ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/22 "2017-06-17T13:56:17Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > A destroyer may well be keeping all electromagnetic emissions to a minimum which could mean no lights, no radar, no radio going out. > > It’s still surprising that no personnel aboard the destroyer saw lights or the IR signature of the container ship. I guess we shouldn’t presume that the civil servants whose work is hidden are anymore competent and diligent than the civil servants whose work is public. Even if they were at a high level of EMCON, there is virtually no way that they didn’t have their running lights on. It’s crowed as hell out there. I’m sure that the destroyer did see the container ship that ship and maybe a hundred others. At night. You turn to avoid on ship and you turn into another. You slow down and someone is coming up on you. I’m not saying that it’s impossible. But it’s harder than it seems from your living room with a cup of coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/23 "2017-06-17T13:58:49Z")
**Ad Astra** has it right. Unless something very unusual happened, the OOW of the Fitzgerald is going to be in a world of pain. The damage to the starboard side of the Fitzgerald and the port bow of the Crystal strongly suggests the former was crossing the bow of the latter from the latter’s port side. That means the Fitzgerald should have given way. However, there is one indication of some fault on the part of the Crystal. From the AIS track, it seems it turned to port about 15° about 3NM before the collision. It seems likely that the Fitzgerald was a crossing vessel at that time and Crystal should therefore have maintained course and speed. By the Colregs, in a crossing situation, the stand-on vessel _should avoid turning to port_. It may be that the Fitzgerald thought that the Crystal would be passing ahead, but didn’t notice the Crystal’s relatively subtle change of course to port, till it was too late. > [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > How does something like this even happen? Granted, it was 2:00 am and dark, but both ships had to have lights on and lookouts posted. There is almost no chance the vessels were unaware of each other. There are a number of ways collisions occur despite full awareness. Surprisingly enough a common wry observation in the industry is that most collisions wouldn’t have happened if one or both of the vessels refrained from taking the evasive action they took. A lot of collisions take place when ships do the maritime, ultra-high mass version of the “corridor dance” that people do when walking towards each other and both try to avoid the other by turning towards the same side. The difference being that if large ships do it, they sometimes can’t stop or turn before they hit. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/24 "2017-06-17T14:08:39Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > It’s crowed as hell out there. How crowded is crowded? A ship every square mile? And how far should ships be from each other when safely passing in a crowded sea lane? When 2 ships are overly close, or on paths to become overly close, do they normally attempt to communicate with each other? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/25 "2017-06-17T14:24:38Z")
It varies tremendously. The Mallaca Strait, the English Channel, the Singapore Strait are notoriously crowded. Other places far less so. Communications? Sometimes. But in a crowded seaway that can make matters worse if there is no language in common or heavy accents and often there can be confusion about who is calling who. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/26 "2017-06-17T14:33:22Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > How crowded is crowded? A ship every square mile? And how far should ships be from each other when safely passing in a crowded sea lane? > > When 2 ships are overly close, or on paths to become overly close, do they normally attempt to communicate with each other? There were transits that I would have given my left arm to have one ship ever square mile. There were times I bet we had 20 or more sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/27 "2017-06-17T14:40:14Z")
Reminds me of the story of the northern Indian reserve. It was isolated, difficult to reach even by ice road. There were exactly two vehicles in the whole reserve, they came in one winter - and they had a head-on collision that summer. It sounds stupid and inept until you realize… here you have a pair of guys with no driver training. They’ve been driving all over the hard dirt streets and out into the bush, doing pretty good speeds in the open areas. Then suddenly, for the first time, someone is coming toward them with a relative closing speed of over 60mph. It’s like two people walking toward each other down the corridor - both swerve one way, then the other, until they walk collide. The same here, only substitute slow maneuver response time for speed. Each side sees a disaster an takes evasive action, which takes a minute or so to become apparent, then realize the other has changed course also to make things worse not better. Based on the angle of collision - was the USN ship trying to turn back away from crossing in front, and almost made it to parallel when it was hit? Was the cargo ship meanwhile turning to go behind the crossing navy ship, only to find it U-turning back to reverse the crossing intent? We shall see… ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/28 "2017-06-17T15:42:20Z")
How fast were these vehicles traveling? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/29 "2017-06-17T15:43:14Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > 1. Even if they were at a high level of EMCON, there is virtually no way that they didn’t have their running lights on. > > 2. But it’s harder than it seems from your living room with a cup of coffee. 1. I agree, no way was a USN vessel traveling in regular shipping lanes without running lights, or even with radio silence as far as using security frequency to contact other ships to avoid collisions. That would only be done, other in than actual war (like general war at sea), perhaps in a carefully controlled exercise area away from shipping lanes, and even then surely the exercise rules would be overridden for safety reasons if a merchant ship nonetheless blundered into the area. 2. Indeed but the same token as 1., USN vessels besides not normally being restricted in any way from practicing safe navigation, normally don’t have as strict schedules as merchant ships either. They have more freedom to stay away from traffic where possible without worrying about schedule, and more people to look out and/or monitor sensors than the two people typically on watch on a merchant ship’s bridge if the captain _hasn’t_ gone up and joined the watch because it’s a tricky area. But a naval officer’s career isn’t mainly made up of safely navigating the ship. That’s something he or she must do when assigned or that career will likely end, and likewise the CO’s career in a case like this is highly likely is over for practical purposes even if he wasn’t directly involved. But there’s a lot more to a naval career than navigating a ship, including leading, coordinating, teaching the much larger team of generally less experience people again doing lots of stuff beside just navigating the ship. The merchant officer’s career is much more focused on day to day hands on operation of a ship. Licensed officers barely outnumber (if at all) unlicensed personnel nowadays. IOW in cases like this there’s no particular reason to assume the naval vessel was less at fault than the merchant ship, though it could be in a particular case depending on the details. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/30 "2017-06-17T15:58:52Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > I would hope the Navy would use AIS in a crowded shipping lane but I think you’re right. The other basic and I would say still principal modern aid to avoiding collisions is the Automatic Radar Plotting Aid. The merchant ship surely has it, and the SPS-73 surface search radar on the DDG has this function, it qualifies as an International Maritime Organization ARPA according to the USN. [http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact\_display.asp?cid=2100&tid=1287&ct=2](http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2100&tid=1287&ct=2) The ARPA automatically plots the courses of the ships in radar range, graphically displaying the closest point of approach along the extension of each ship’s current course at its current speed, with a warning if it’s too close. In fact an issue that has arisen in some recent accidents is ships relying too much on AIS, especially considering ships which may not be transmitting, and neglecting radar watch and ARPA data. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/31 "2017-06-17T16:08:08Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Court-martials are routine, even for running aground with no significant damage. It is inconceivable that there would be no court-martial for a collision with another ship, with seven sailors missing, and probably millions of dollars of damage to the US ship. In what way are court martials routine? A court martial will happen only after evidence of criminal wrong doing is uncovered. There are many other levels of inquiry and career ending punishment before you go all the way to court martial. Or do you mean an Article 32 hearing? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/32 "2017-06-17T16:19:44Z")
Even if the Captain wasn’t on the bridge, he’s responsible for the training and efficiency of the people who were. Either way, it’s probably a career-ending event. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/33 "2017-06-17T16:27:47Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > That is really cool. It’s hard to see where the time tag corresponds to on your screenshot though. Where the ship was traveling east and suddenly turns south slightly, could that be an attempt at an evasive maneuver just before the collision? And the ship looped back to the scene of the collision, perhaps to render aid? When I took the screenshot, my cursor disappeared, but that tag is right in the middle of the western straightaway, just below the left corner of the tag. You can go to [marinetraffic.com](http://marinetraffic.com) and it’ll show tags like that for every point on the track. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/34 "2017-06-17T17:20:08Z")
Big ships can behave unpredictably when sailing close to each other. My brother was a Radio Officer with P&O on bulk carriers. After a few near misses and a couple of relatively minor scrapes, they were forbidden to pass within five miles of a sister ship in the open ocean. It’s tempting - two large ships from the same company steaming towards each other somewhere off The Cape. The cox will always be tempted to pass a few hundred metres away just so he can wave to his opposite number. The tendency is for them to be pulled in and with two 100,000 pls tonne ships, it is hard to get away. Also remember that they steer from the rear, so if you turn left, the stern moves right. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/35 "2017-06-17T18:35:16Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Even if the Captain wasn’t on the bridge, he’s responsible for the training and efficiency of the people who were. Either way, it’s probably a career-ending event. It is always a career ending event. \*\*\*Especially \*\*\*when it is a top of the line billion+ dollar ship that just came out of an upgrade. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/36 "2017-06-17T19:25:12Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Big ships can behave unpredictably when sailing close to each other. There’s [a training facility on a lake in France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Revel) where captains are trained on scale models that mimic the behavior of large ships on smaller distance and time scales; their model ships look to be about 20 feet long, but they weigh many thousands of pounds and are equipped with a motor of just a couple of horsepower. Some good [YouTube videos](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=port+revel+shiphandling+training+centre) showing what odd things happen in shallow waters and near other ships. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/37 "2017-06-17T20:22:24Z")
Here’s one: **[The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vST6hVRj2A)** ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/38 "2017-06-17T21:05:51Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > There’s [a training facility on a lake in France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Revel) where captains are trained on scale models that mimic the behavior of large ships on smaller distance and time scales; their model ships look to be about 20 feet long, but they weigh many thousands of pounds and are equipped with a motor of just a couple of horsepower. Some good [YouTube videos](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=port+revel+shiphandling+training+centre) showing what odd things happen in shallow waters and near other ships. I had no idea that was a thing, but it’s both nifty and extremely clever. I think the [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jwb0-r0haw) showing the scaled container ship passing a moored cargo vessel is particularly revealing. (It’s enhanced with an outline of the moored ship; the outline is fixed, so you can see how far the ship gets displaced by the passage.) ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/39 "2017-06-17T22:33:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > From the pictures, it looks like the US ship was rammed by the merchant ship. That a US Navy ship allowed itself to be rammed is going to be of considerable interest to the Board of Enquiry and terrorists. What if the merchant ship had been loaded with explosives? From the pictures you can not really tell who hit who. But as the Destroyer was damaged on the Starboard side and the tanker’s damage was on the port side this would indicate that both ships were probably going in the same general direction. I doubt a merchant ship could change speed and direction fast enough to ram a Destroyer. My swag the Destroyer was attempting to over take the container ship, planned to pass him then cut across the containership’s bow to the other side for some reason. I have watch Navy ships race around in restricted waters like a kid driving a hot rod. Who ever had the con of the destroyer probably miss judged the distance, or speed of the container ship. That is my uneducated swag. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/40 "2017-06-17T22:36:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s what the court martial will decide. I doubt there will be a court martial. There will be a board of inquire, they can recommend a court martial, letter of reprimand, or no blame or which officers to blame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=3)