# Navy destroyer Fitzgerald collides with merchant ship **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149 "2017-06-16T23:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/121 "2017-06-21T17:16:57Z")
😕 “CPA?” And the length of “a cable?” ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/122 "2017-06-21T17:39:30Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕 “CPA?” And the length of “a cable?” CPA == Closest Point of Approach Cable: 100 fathoms, or 600 feet, or approximately 1/10 of a Nautical Mile. IOW, we came less than 600 feet (about 450, in my estimation) of slamming a 22 thousand-ton displacment vessel into the stern of the USS Tarawa. And, by the Rules of the Road and Seniority, it would’ve been our fault, though they were the ones to jump the queue. Skipper was still white-faced and pinch-lipped when I saw him, about an hour later. Nice guy, very controlled, even tempered, never seen him that pissed off, not even at Mast. _Edit_: Be glad I wsan’t talking in “shots” or “Chains.” 😛 (90 feet, fifteen Fathoms) - i.e. The Tarawa was five shots off our bow. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/123 "2017-06-21T17:45:07Z")
Missed the window: A “Chain” would be 22 yards. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/124 "2017-06-21T20:21:47Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > In the end it’s a floating long steel box with an engine, rudder and prop at one end. Unless things are navigationally challenging, when a merchant ship is at sea at night there’s not much to do. Just keep a lookout and maintain a course, both of which can be done with two eyeballs and two hands. Though they have four of each. > > The engine just runs without engineers needing to watch it all the time (same as your car, basically). Yes, I know it is a long box but the cruise ship I was on had a lot more people in bridge controlling it. However, they had a few more things to do. It still amazed me how just 2 people can be all that controls a ship. That being said, my impression was probably formed by the large crew on the Titanic and the large crew (430) on the old Star Trek enterprise as well as the several thousand crew members on a large aircraft carrier Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/125 "2017-06-22T01:03:12Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > HOWEVER - Per Navy Times, it appears that the ACX Crystal was the _overtaking_ vessel, which changes things - The overtaking vessel is the “Give Way” vessel. As discussed upthread already. If this is correct information then I would still tend towards thinking there was substantial fault on the part of the Fitzgerald. If the Crystal was overtaking then the two vessels were heading in the same direction converging at an angle of 22.5° or less. That’s the definition of overtaking as opposed to crossing. That would mean that the Fitz’ obligation was to stand on ie maintain course and speed, and the Crystal’s obligation was to keep clear. Given that the AIS shows no turn to port shortly before the collision, there are two possibilities. The first is that the vessels were on a converging collision course and neither vessel turned away effectively, and the collision occurred, without more. I’m quite doubtful about this because [ul][li]the photos of the damage to the Crystal show _very_ heavy damage to the very point of the bow;[/li][li]your linked report says there is a substantial underwater crack to the Fitz (probably caused by the bulbous bow of the Crystal);[/li][li]the damage to the Fitz looks to my untrained eye to be too heavy to be caused by a less-than-22.5° glancing blow; and[/li][li]the AIS track of the Crystal seems to show it being shoved heavily off course to starboard, rather than merely glancing off at less than 22.5°[/ul][/li]To me all this looks like a near T-bone, not a glancing blow. The second is that the vessels were on a converging (but not necessarily collision) course and one or other vessel turned inward, leading to a near t-bone. There is no such turn on the AIS track of the Crystal as I’m reading it, and reasonably large container vessels don’t turn on a dime. That suggests to me that the Fitzgerald failed to stand on, and instead turned hard to starboard. Upthread I said “Surprisingly enough a common wry observation in the industry is that most collisions wouldn’t have happened if one or both of the vessels refrained from taking the evasive action they took.” I’ve been involved in two previous cases involving collisions caused by vessels taking panicky last second action. One involved a naval vessel doing something unbelievably stupid and panicky. Perhaps that biases my guesses here 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/126 "2017-06-22T02:12:46Z")
IANA expert on the crossing rules, but it seems at very first glance that it’d be easy for a crew to misunderstand whether they were in a crossing or an overtaking situation. Given the different duties in those two situations, it’d be a disaster in the making. e.g. one ship thinks he’s overtaken and therefore stand-on. Other vessel thinks he’s starboard in a crossing situation and therefore is stand-on. Both stand pat until the situation is unrecoverable. Or, as you say, perhaps worse is when both think they’re the give-way vessel and maneuver to “avoid” the collision they’re now actively contributing to. I’m wondering if there’s any validity to my thoughts here? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/127 "2017-06-22T02:25:40Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > You are forgetting the cargo officer and quite possibly two technicians if they had refrigerated boxes on deck. They need frequent checks - at least daily, which involves climbing around them. There would certainly have been a cook and quite possibly a steward for the Officer’s mess. Cargo officer = Mates ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/128 "2017-06-22T02:52:53Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > Yes, I know it is a long box but the cruise ship I was on had a lot more people in bridge controlling it. However, they had a few more things to do. > > It still amazed me how just 2 people can be all that controls a ship. > > That being said, my impression was probably formed by the large crew on the Titanic and the large crew (430) on the old Star Trek enterprise as well as the several thousand crew members on a large aircraft carrier > > Thanks The only controls are the throttle, and a helm. That is all the bridge watch controls. I was on the Bridge of the Grand Princess under way coming back from Hawaii. Bridge watch was a mate the senior watch officer, 2 lookouts, 1 helmsman, and I think a messenger. I believe the ship was 100,000 ton range. Normally under way in the open seas the only thing the bridge watch does is watch. Of the large crew of the Titanic or any passenger ship The Deck and Engineering departments are not the largest departments. There are cooks, servers, porters, stewards, laundry workers, kitchen workers, photographers, printers, radio department, the large entertainment department, pursers and more. There are just a small number of people that are responsible to maneuver the ship. ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/129 "2017-06-22T03:05:31Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The only controls are the throttle, and a helm. That is all the bridge watch controls. > > I was on the Bridge of the Grand Princess under way coming back from Hawaii. Bridge watch was a mate the senior watch officer, 2 lookouts, 1 helmsman, and I think a messenger. I believe the ship was 100,000 ton range. Normally under way in the open seas the only thing the bridge watch does is watch. > > Of the large crew of the Titanic or any passenger ship The Deck and Engineering departments are not the largest departments. There are cooks, servers, porters, stewards, laundry workers, kitchen workers, photographers, printers, radio department, the large entertainment department, pursers and more. There are just a small number of people that are responsible to maneuver the ship. Yes, I am well aware that the support staff makes up the majority of the ship crew. Can I still be amazed at how few people are running such a large ship:D ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/130 "2017-06-22T03:57:15Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > Yes, I am well aware that the support staff makes up the majority of the ship crew. Can I still be amazed at how few people are running such a large ship:D By chance were you in the Navy? When I was doing reserve duty on a Destroyer the officers of the DD could not believe that there were on 3 of us on watch of a merchant marine engine and boiler room watch. Engineer, oiler, and fireman. ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/131 "2017-06-22T04:09:41Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Well, I can only speak to my own specific experiences here, but on the submarines I sailed, we could be in Battlestations in well under four minutes. _Well_ before that, everyone would be out of their bunks and moving - FAST. Those asleep would be finishing getting dressed at their stations. On the Sub Tender, our standard was seven minutes\* - Which we routinely beat by a healthy margin. > > An alarm with even a minute to spare would’ve had folks up and thinking, at the very minimum. I can’t help but think that the seven killed were physically injured, as well as disoriented. Even a spare 30 seconds to wake up, and the disorientation would’ve been a minimal factor - and they’d have been out of their bunks. That can be all the difference in the world. > > \*Fleet minimum standards give more time than that - I had ambitioous skippers. 2 points on this 1. During the Titanic iceberg collision which occurred just after midnight, 2 of the night watch crew on the nearby steamer California (which stopped for the night due to ice ) observed something unusual (rockets firing) and went down to wake the Captain, Mr. Lord. Mr. Lord dismissed the rockets because they were the wrong color and went back to sleep and they only found out about the sinking in the morning. (Whether they could do something is another issue) 2. When I was on a cruise, I woke up at 1:00 am (on a Monday morning ) and I commented to my parents that this was roughly the time the Titanic hit an iceberg and the thought of getting up and trying to evacuate at the time of the night was quite difficult. We certainly would take longer than 4 minutes to get to the lifeboat station from our cabin and I was 47 at the time (My parents were 72 and 77) People who can be instantly awake and ready to go amaze me ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/132 "2017-06-22T04:13:08Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > By chance were you in the Navy? > > When I was doing reserve duty on a Destroyer the officers of the DD could not believe that there were on 3 of us on watch of a merchant marine engine and boiler room watch. Engineer, oiler, and fireman. No, I am a engineer/teacher but I have Navy friends (mostly retired) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/133 "2017-06-22T04:42:16Z")
**LSLGuy** I think your points do identify a weakness in the rules but in practice it’s not a weakness that arises much. At night, the angles of visibility of the various navigation lights make the angles of the vessels clear. And radar and GPS the same. And even when a close situation does develop, usually the stand on vessel will turn away not towards the give way vessel. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/134 "2017-06-22T15:01:49Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > 😕“SWAG?” Scientific. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/135 "2017-06-22T15:56:49Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > 2 points on this > > 1. During the Titanic iceberg collision which occurred just after midnight, 2 of the night watch crew on the nearby steamer California (which stopped for the night due to ice ) observed something unusual (rockets firing) and went down to wake the Captain, Mr. Lord. Mr. Lord dismissed the rockets because they were the wrong color and went back to sleep and they only found out about the sinking in the morning. (Whether they could do something is another issue) > > 2. When I was on a cruise, I woke up at 1:00 am (on a Monday morning ) and I commented to my parents that this was roughly the time the Titanic hit an iceberg and the thought of getting up and trying to evacuate at the time of the night was quite difficult. We certainly would take longer than 4 minutes to get to the lifeboat station from our cabin and I was 47 at the time (My parents were 72 and 77) > > People who can be instantly awake and ready to go amaze me Naval discipline is rather different from Civilians on a cruise liner. Yes, we get up on an instant. It’s something you can be trained to do, and the Nav is very good at that kind of training. To this day, I parse sounds in my sleep. Want to see me snap awake in an instant? Pop the main breaker in the house, and I’ll be on my feet before I’m actually thinking. Why? Because ‘suddenly silent.’ On a naval vessel, that’s a Very Bad Thing. My mind still reacts that way. “Rockets in the distance” is ,uch less worrisome than “Large vessel on a converging course.” That second item WILL get your attention. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/136 "2017-06-22T16:13:39Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > [ul][li]the photos of the damage to the Crystal show _very_ heavy damage to the very point of the bow;[/li][li]your linked report says there is a substantial underwater crack to the Fitz (probably caused by the bulbous bow of the Crystal);[/li][li]the damage to the Fitz looks to my untrained eye to be too heavy to be caused by a less-than-22.5° glancing blow; and[/li][li]the AIS track of the Crystal seems to show it being shoved heavily off course to starboard, rather than merely glancing off at less than 22.5°[/ul][/li]To me all this looks like a near T-bone, not a glancing blow. Looking at the fence damage to the Crystal, it is abundantly clear that it was NOT a near-perpendicualr strike. I’ve seen the damage of a perpendicular strike, and that’s not it. That’s a classic angled strike. It is probably much less acute than 22.5°, I agree. Maybe as high as 45°. The Fitz’s weather deck edge is most likely what caused the bow cut. I’ve seen high angle shots of the Crystal’s bow, and their bow bulge doesn’t seem notably large. I suspect the hull crack is more likely due to the Fitz’s hull flexing at the point of collision (500+ foot hull has a HUGE moment of leverage, when suddenly shoved violently sideways at a single point). > [@](#): > > There is no such turn on the AIS track of the Crystal as I’m reading it, and reasonably large container vessels don’t turn on a dime. That suggests to me that the Fitzgerald failed to stand on, and instead turned hard to starboard. Possible - A turn to avoid the Crystal by passing astern would’ve done that. Of course, at close range, you’re in the _in extremis_ situation, where manuevering to avoid IS allowed by the stand-on vessel. > [@](#): > > I’ve been involved in two previous cases involving collisions caused by vessels taking panicky last second action. One involved a naval vessel doing something unbelievably stupid and panicky. Perhaps that biases my guesses here 😉 Oh, certainly. I’ve commented on one such instance, myself, above. OTOH, I’ve seen some seriously stupid shit done by civilian vessels, as well. Fact is, wherever you have an industrial environment (and the sea is certainly such!), you WILL see Stupid Human Tricks. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/137 "2017-06-22T20:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Investigators now think Crystal was transiting to Tokyo on autopilot with an inattentive or asleep crew when the merchant vessel struck a glancing blow on the destroyer’s starboard side at about 1:30 AM local time on Friday. When the crew of Crystal realized they had hit something, the ship performed a U-turn in the shipping lane and sped back to the initial site of the collision at 18 knots, discovered Fitzgerald, and radioed a distress call to authorities at about 2:30 AM. U.S. Navy officials initially said the collision occurred at around the time of the distress call at 2:30 AM. > **[Investigators Believe USS Fitzgerald Crew Fought Flooding For An Hour Before...](https://news.usni.org/2017/06/21/investigators-believe-uss-fitzgerald-crew-fought-flooding-for-an-hour-before-distress-call-reached-help)** > > The crew of USS Fitzgerald fought to save the ship for an hour before the first calls went out for help, Japanese investigators now believe. Perhaps both of them were “on autopilot with an inattentive or asleep crew” ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/138 "2017-06-23T00:49:15Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Oh, certainly. I’ve commented on one such instance, myself, above. OTOH, I’ve seen some seriously stupid shit done by civilian vessels, as well. > Fact is, wherever you have an industrial environment (and the sea is certainly such!), you WILL see Stupid Human Tricks. I was on a tanker that clipped another tanker. The other tanker was docked and we were coming in to dock. Tore 3 inches of the deck and handrail right the upper deck just outside of my quarters. From what the rumor mill had going the tanker we hit was loading high octane gas, and some people on the tanker we hid were jumping off the fantail. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/139 "2017-06-23T02:07:49Z")
> [@Tranquilis](#): > > Looking at the fence damage to the Crystal, it is abundantly clear that it was NOT a near-perpendicualr strike. I’ve seen the damage of a perpendicular strike, and that’s not it. That’s a classic angled strike. It is probably much less acute than 22.5°, I agree. Maybe as high as 45°. The Fitz’s weather deck edge is most likely what caused the bow cut. I agree. I think more than 22.5 but certainly not perpendicular. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149/140 "2017-06-23T09:12:03Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [https://news.usni.org/2017/06/21/investigators-believe-uss-fitzgerald-crew-fought-flooding-for-an-hour-before-distress-call-reached-help](https://news.usni.org/2017/06/21/investigators-believe-uss-fitzgerald-crew-fought-flooding-for-an-hour-before-distress-call-reached-help) > > Perhaps both of them were “on autopilot with an inattentive or asleep crew” Unless things have **really** changed since my Navy days (1980-90s), Navy ships **don’t** have “autopilot.” Here’s a CNN article which has general info on Navy watchstanders: How do Navy ships operate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/navy-destroyer-fitzgerald-collides-with-merchant-ship/789149.md?page=8)