# Naxos Is From An Alternate Universe **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704 "2011-05-29T22:16:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/161 "2011-06-01T11:38:44Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > I’m pretty sure I just did, it depends how many people agree with you. > > sorry if that’s too cynical an answer, but it’s true. No it isn’t. If someone drugged the water with something that caused schizophrenia, would schizophrenia suddenly become healthy just because it was universal? No, it wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/162 "2011-06-01T12:07:41Z")
Well, let’s see… Between this thread and all the others touching on the god/no god issue, we’ve seen: 1. Atheists bemoaning all the death and destruction that religion has caused– 2. Theists countering that religion has brought about great works and acts of beauty, tolerance and altruism– 3. Atheists conceding that religion has indeed resulted in many positives and has often benefited humankind– 4. Theists conceding that a lot of horrific suffering and horror have been committed for the sake of religion– Fine. There’s no doubt some good and some bad that has come about because of religion. So suppose we say, hypothetically, that the existence of religion has resulted in an exactly even, 50/50, half-and-half, distribution of both good and evil acts. Even if that were so, it wouldn’t have any bearing whatsoever on the fact that there is no objective, empirical, logical reason to have any belief–however uncertain or qualified–that there are any sort of gods (as widely considered by most theists and/or children’s picture-books) in existence. K? Even though, IMHO, the existence of religion is a net loss for the progress of civilization (in the present era), that has nothing to do with the inherent gobblety-gooky nonsense of god-belief. That wackiness stands on its own “merits”. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/163 "2011-06-01T12:13:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it isn’t. If someone drugged the water with something that caused schizophrenia, would schizophrenia suddenly become healthy just because it was universal? No, it wouldn’t. Where did I say it was healthy? He asked how we distinguish between religion and mental illness. As a society, that’s how we do it. If we all drank schizophrenia water and shared the same delusion, that would indeed be considered sane. I never said it was a good system. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/164 "2011-06-01T12:18:05Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > Where did I say it was healthy? He asked how we distinguish between religion and mental illness. As a society, that’s how we do it. If we all drank schizophrenia water and shared the same delusion, that would indeed be considered sane. Nonsense. Plenty of common or universal mental qualities are considered defects; just because the majority have the same defect doesn’t make it any less of a defect. If we all drink schizophrenia water, then we are all insane. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/165 "2011-06-01T12:25:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Careful, you fool! They’ll merge into the unholy binary demon… Trixonosis! Bahhhh… Trixo-gnosis is for kids. Kids with contemplative spiritual knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/166 "2011-06-01T12:38:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. Plenty of common or universal mental qualities are considered defects; just because the majority have the same defect doesn’t make it any less of a defect. If we all drink schizophrenia water, then we are all insane. gay people used to be insane, now they’re not. Sanity is whatever people decide is “normal enough”. The gay people didnt change, society just wised up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/167 "2011-06-01T12:39:51Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > gay people used to be insane, now they’re not. No, they were always sane. The people who claimed otherwise were just pseudoscientists, frauds. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/168 "2011-06-01T12:41:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. Plenty of common or universal mental qualities are considered defects; just because the majority have the same defect doesn’t make it any less of a defect. If we all drink schizophrenia water, then we are all insane. Says who, you? If you’ve also drunk the schizophrenia water, then I don’t see how you’d know you were crazy, and even if you could, why would I listen to you - you’re crazy! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/169 "2011-06-01T12:47:15Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > I’m pretty sure I just did, it depends how many people agree with you. Here’s the old thread: [How do you distinguish religion from insanity? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=104110) Your suggestion was offered up. I don’t find it satisfactory, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/170 "2011-06-01T13:02:42Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Some times people talk about “strong” or “weak” atheism. Strong being a statement like " I do know that no gods exist", and Weak being a statement like “There is no proof of any god so I will not accept one until some proof is evident.” > > The second position above is a theistic position, by the way, because a person would readily accept the existence of a god if some “proof” was available. No it isn’t. It’s a scientific position, your scare quotes notwithstanding. Likewise I’ll accept the existence of fairies, Higgs Boson particles and libertarianism as a workable societal structure given sufficient credible evidence. The caveat that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof continues to apply, but a blanket refusal to consider any evidence presented in at least a cursory fashion is just dogmatic stubbornness. On another subject: > [@5-HT](#): > > gay people used to be insane, now they’re not. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they were always sane. The people who claimed otherwise were just pseudoscientists, frauds. That’s overly simplistic. The people responsible for the push to classify homosexuality as a mental illness (in 1948? can’t remember) were actually trying to move the public perception of homosexuality from being criminal deviancy (complete with prison time) to being something innate and involuntary. The argument was that homosexual desires were not something controllable; they were part of the person. Which is, AFAIK, true. While this reclassification did nothing to remove the idea that homosexual urges were _bad_, it did move the accepted view away from the idea that they were deliberate and evil. It took another two and a half decades for the Overton window to shift far enough for the next step to be taken. If you want the full story, listen [here](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/204/81-words). ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/171 "2011-06-01T13:03:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they were always sane. The people who claimed otherwise were just pseudoscientists, frauds. Wow you’re dense. They were always perfectly healthy, of course, because the people making the rules were wrong. Sanity is a man-made concept. Hopefully, we will eventually progress to a post-religion world one day where superstition is indeed considered insane, but with people like you on ourside, no wonder its taking so long. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/172 "2011-06-01T13:06:53Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > with people like you on ourside, no wonder its taking so long. And now you understand **Der Trihs**. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/173 "2011-06-01T13:08:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No it isn’t. It’s a scientific position, your scare quotes notwithstanding. Likewise I’ll accept the existence of fairies, Higgs Boson particles and libertarianism as a workable societal structure given sufficient credible evidence. The caveat that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof continues to apply, but a blanket refusal to consider any evidence presented in at least a cursory fashion is just dogmatic stubbornness. > > On another subject: > That’s overly simplistic. The people responsible for the push to classify homosexuality as a mental illness (in 1948? can’t remember) were actually trying to move the public perception of homosexuality from being criminal deviancy (complete with prison time) to being something innate and involuntary. The argument was that homosexual desires were not something controllable; they were part of the person. Which is, AFAIK, true. > > While this reclassification did nothing to remove the idea that homosexual urges were _bad_, it did move the accepted view away from the idea that they were deliberate and evil. It took another two and a half decades for the Overton window to shift far enough for the next step to be taken. > > If you want the full story, listen [here](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/204/81-words). My point was simply that standards of sanity in both directions have changed over time. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/174 "2011-06-01T15:32:31Z")
Billions of people have used religion to promote peace and welfare for humanity. Some have used religion to justify killing and evil. Ergo, religion is evil. Billions of people have used rocks to build shelter, form tools, construct paths. Some have used rocks to bash in heads of others. Ergo, rocks are evil. Billions of people have used [Insert object, dogma, system here] to do good. Some have used [Insert object, dogma, system here] to do evil. Ergo, [Insert object, dogma, system here] is evil. Maybe it’s the _ **people** _ who have misused religion and not the religion itself. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/175 "2011-06-01T22:30:25Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > Wow you’re dense. They were always perfectly healthy, of course, because the people making the rules were wrong. Sanity is a man-made concept. No, it’s an objective fact; it’s no more just a “human definition” than a wound or sickness is. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > Billions of people have used religion to promote peace and welfare for humanity. Some have used religion to justify killing and evil. Ergo, religion is evil. Far fewer people have used religion to promote anything good than have used it (or been used by it) to promote evil, and generally they have done badly since they are crippled by it. And religion uses people more than the other way around. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > Maybe it’s the _ **people** _ who have misused religion and not the religion itself. An argument which just underlines how evil, how anti-human religion is. Rather than blame religion, you prefer to demonize humanity instead. It doesn’t matter that religion often clearly calls for people to commit evil; it isn’t the fault of religion, only of those vile humans. That’s about as logical as saying “you can’t blame Nazism for the Holocaust! It was the inborn evil of the humans practicing it that made everything turn out so badly!” People don’t normally hesitate to blame evil ideologies for the evil they cause - except for religion. Then suddenly it’s all because humans are monsters. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/176 "2011-06-01T22:34:31Z")
Religion is an entirely human creation. If you demonize religion, you ARE demonizing humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/177 "2011-06-01T22:40:01Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Religion is an entirely human creation. If you demonize religion, you ARE demonizing humanity. It began as such, but has its own existence now, its own agenda at the expense of its host like any virus. And demonizing it would only be demonizing humanity if all people were religious. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/178 "2011-06-01T22:45:04Z")
So it’s an independent but parasitic creature living within us? That’s a… religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/179 "2011-06-01T23:11:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So it’s an independent but parasitic creature living within us? That’s a… religious belief. Really. So believing in influenza is a religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704/180 "2011-06-01T23:58:08Z")
When you can provide a generally accepted definition of “mental illness” and demonstrate that belief in religion fits that definition, then you can claim that religion is a mental illness. Until then, you’re just some anonymous crack pot posting on the internet. You won’t be able to do that because “mental illness” involves an impairment to function in everyday life. Now, there are certainly people whose beliefs in religion fall in that category, but that is a tiny minority of those who do believe in religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/naxos-is-from-an-alternate-universe/583704.md?page=10)