# Nazi fuel??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 15, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904 "2012-02-15T05:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/21 "2012-02-15T08:42:16Z")
> [@Pablo\_O\_Malley](#): > > if the u.s. developed a synfuel that cost twice the price of gas it would still be cheaper to use for all of us…because we’d no longer have to import oil we wouldn’t have to spend billions defending saudi arabia and we wouldn’t care as much about the middle east… Who’s “we” and “all of us”? Your average worker driving up to a gas station to fill up her car isn’t spending billions defending Saudi Arabia,\* and probably doesn’t hold very strong opinions about the Middle East. All she cares about is getting the best price for a gasoline of adequate quality. Given the choice at the pump between regular gasoline at $1 per litre or synthetic gasoline at $2 per litre, she is going to pick the regular gasoline every time. - Even if you take the view that a portion of her tax dollars are funding the defence of Saudi Arabia, the amount is negligible compared to what she probably spends on gasoline in a year. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/22 "2012-02-15T09:20:40Z")
> [@kombatminipig](#): > > Most data on the human body’s reaction to exposure still used today was collected from experiments on Jews in the concentration camps. As distastefully as it was collected, it’s still data. But not very useable data, as I understand it. The subjects were in such poor condition, starved, overworked, beaten, etc. that their ‘endurance’ isn’t very relevant to that of a typical pilot or soldier. Even a fat, out-of-shape tourist on a sinking cruise ship has more endurance than a concentration camp inmate. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/23 "2012-02-15T10:26:20Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Another example was the “cuckoo project” which converted coal to a liquid fuel. There has been a lot of research into methods of making gasoline replacements from coal. Currently they are all too expensive to be practical, but research on it continues to this day. The [Secunda CTL](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secunda_CTL) plant in South Africa produces 160,000 barrels/day of synthetic crude from coal, which is a significant fraction of the national consumption of 553,000 barrels/day. To be fair, the Secunda plant was subsidized by the apartheid government because of the oil embargo, so it might have been otherwise uneconomical; but it doesn’t seem to be “too expensive to be practical”. ---
**Author:** ![max\_power](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/db5fbb/32.png) [@max\_power](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/max_power)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/24 "2012-02-15T10:54:16Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Actually I’ll take a crack at it: > > works out to be 8 billion barrels a year consumption at current price of $101 a barrel = $808 billion a year the US spends on oil for all needs. > If the government spent an equal amount to subsidise synthetic fuel (halving the price) that would cost 1.2 Trillion over 15 years. So yeah actually thats kind of feasible, assuming oil from coal is not more than double $101 a barrel to produce. > > The US apparently has coal reserves to last more than 300 years, the main issue would be how quickly you could build coal/oil plants and increase coal output, but over 15 years it should be doable. Umm, 808bn \* 15 = ~12tn, not 1.2. That’s a whole heap of cash. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/25 "2012-02-15T11:15:56Z")
How much additional coal would the US need, compared to current production and reserves? ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/26 "2012-02-15T19:05:20Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Couldn’t we conserve that amount of energy, if everyone just ignored the normal rules and didn’t waste pixels on capitalization & punctuation? ::Snort:: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/27 "2012-02-15T19:35:51Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > South Africa used something similar during Apartheid when they had sanctions against them. They still do, and now that much of the investments are paid off, [the plant is a money machine](http://www.americanfuelscoalition.com/2011/06/17/sasol-profile/). The same type of synthesis is used [with natural gas as a raw material](http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/gtl/) and is also sufficiently economically promising that several companies are considering investing in such plants. The technology can also be used for [biofuel production](http://www.choren.com/en/), but right now it’s not economically viable with biomass raw materials. The product is about the highest quality diesel fuel you can get, extremely low in aromatics and completely sulfur-free and may become even more interesting as stronger regulations on SO2 emissions seem to emerge some places in the world. ETA: The process, BTW, is called [Fischer-Tropsch synthesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-tropsch), and [syngas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas) is the raw material for the synthesis. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/28 "2012-02-15T19:44:47Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > As I understand it coal/oil plants can be fairly small. Yeah, but the economy of the plant would suffer dramatically. A CtL plant is one of the many examples of economy of scale and that sometimes, bigger is in fact better. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/29 "2012-02-15T19:48:28Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > They still do, and now that much of the investments are paid off, [the plant is a money machine](http://www.americanfuelscoalition.com/2011/06/17/sasol-profile/). The same type of synthesis is used [with natural gas as a raw material](http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/gtl/) and is also sufficiently economically promising that several companies are considering investing in such plants. The technology can also be used for [biofuel production](http://www.choren.com/en/), but right now it’s not economically viable with biomass raw materials. > > The product is about the highest quality diesel fuel you can get, extremely low in aromatics and completely sulfur-free and may become even more interesting as stronger regulations on SO2 emissions seem to emerge some places in the world. > > ETA: The process, BTW, is called [Fischer-Tropsch synthesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-tropsch), and [syngas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas) is the raw material for the synthesis. ETA2: **Dissonance** beat me to it. Note to self: Read whole thread before answering :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/30 "2012-02-15T20:03:14Z")
The “300 years worth of coal” figure, as far as I can tell, is based on using that coal in the same way as today, which is to say mostly for electricity. If one were to instead use enough of it to replace a significant fraction of the motor fuels that are currently derived from crude oil, it wouldn’t last as long. Isn’t the M60 machine gun based on a WW2 German design? Distaste doesn’t seem to come into the equation. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/31 "2012-02-15T20:42:45Z")
New Zealand used to have a[natural gas - petrol](http://www.ipenz.org.nz/heritage/itemdetail.cfm?itemid=68)plant back in the 1980s but it was taken offline in the 1990s as the oil price dropped. It’s very much a solved problem. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/32 "2012-02-16T04:06:52Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The US apparently has coal reserves to last more than 300 years, the main issue would be how quickly you could build coal/oil plants and increase coal output, but over 15 years it should be doable. 1. No we don’t. A better estimate is 220-250 years _at current consumption_ and assuming that we leverage lignite deposits as well. At any reasonable growth rate and being conservative, it’s more like 125-175, without any new consumption from CTL tech. 2. On what possible basis do you assume 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904/33 "2012-02-16T04:09:06Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > The [Secunda CTL](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secunda_CTL) plant in South Africa produces 160,000 barrels/day of synthetic crude from coal, which is a significant fraction of the national consumption of 553,000 barrels/day. > > To be fair, the Secunda plant was subsidized by the apartheid government because of the oil embargo, so it might have been otherwise uneconomical; but it doesn’t seem to be “too expensive to be practical”. Not only that, but **I’ve personally worked** with the CTL folks in South Africa, and there are many plans to expand production, to the point where folks are very worried about South Africa becoming a net coal importer within an alarmingly short time frame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-fuel/612904.md?page=1)