# Nazi Lobbyist in Washington **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815 "2012-04-15T03:11:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/81 "2012-04-18T16:32:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No, no, no. **Commies** go under the bed. Nazis hide in your closet. So if you’ll just shove your bed into your closet and take a walk . . . ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/82 "2012-04-18T16:49:53Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > One guy may try to lobby, but he is backed up by more guys. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![howye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@howye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/howye)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/83 "2012-04-18T17:29:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I disagree. I believe with a neutral or supportive government, ideological groups can flourish just as with government pressure, ideological groups can be restricted or mitigated. > > We don’t have to look far. In our recent history, when laws were written to support the rights of minorities, when people stood up to unjust rules and laws, when mass support was organized in favor of civil rights, generally, that movement can progress forward. Yes, I realize that we were talking about more freedoms in this case, more progressive legislation, and a world culture with momentum moving towards equal rights for minorities and not against it as in the Nazi example. But it goes to show that government can affect what people believe. It is of course still possible to succeed without government support, but its easier with it. > > Back to Nazis, we have a hateful group that almost nobody likes, that pretty much everyone thinks should go away and never come back. The argument is whether government should be used to help that along. I think it should be, and I’d support certain exceptions made to existing rules to make sure that happens at a faster rate. Ban the ANP from being able to lobby, ban them from holding official power. Ban outright use of their hateful symbols and using the worlds of their past leaders as inspiration. I’m not naive enough to think that will make all Nazis suddenly change their minds, but without overt demonstrations and legal support of their ideology, it will make it that much harder for them to claim legitimacy. Look, I know they’ll go underground, but the question isn’t whether forcing them underground will make them more powerful, the question is if it will hinder them if we don’t provide them cover above ground. I think that’s a perfectly good way of getting rid of them. In fact, if Nazis were of any significance, they’d be running both an above ground operation and an underground operation. One does not have to be “forced” underground, one can do both. > > No, I think you want for me to have it mean the same to me as it does to you, but it doesn’t. Even in an anarchy, we do not have true freedom. With no government, we’d still be slaves to power and whoever has the most. In a small government communal society, we’d still be free within the confines of a community. It is enough for me to say that America is free but bans certain things, but we are still pretty damn free. There are plenty of laws I don’t agree with, but they are not egregious enough for me to make some hyperbolic statement and accuse others of not knowing what freedom means. I think a free society can ban Nazis and still be free, deal with it > > Or to put it another way, you want to set it for all of us and think that by my disagreement, I’m not truly free but your version of freedom is truly free. Sorry, but you will just have to accept that your definition of freedom is just as subjective and arbitrary as mine, unless you are an anarchist or something > > Says you. I say its an affront to freedom. How do you like that? 😛 > > Not “any” speech. Just Nazis. Cause fuck Nazis. > > No, just Nazis > > You can be a Nazi. You just can’t hold office. Just like you can’t hold certain offices if you aren’t an American-born citizen, or if you haven’t lived in your area of representation for a certain number of years, or if you’re an adult but haven’t reached a certain age. Those things are also subjective. I could ask why America is so unfree that we don’t allow presidents under 35? If you support that, you’re basically saying that anyone under 35 is somehow unfit to be president, despite a difference in life experience where some older people are not as mature or capable as younger? And if there’s a ban on 35 and under, why not a ban on 80 or older? At that point you could have all the experience in the world but your body can betray you at any second. And who cares if a person’s not American, why should only Americans be allowed to be president of America? Other people have good ideas too. Why can’t a person be born outside America but still be president? > > You want to make every restriction sound equal, where I can’t support freedom of I don’t also allow Nazis to hold office. I think that’s arbitrary. I love my freedom. But I think Nazis have simply crossed that line to the point where they don’t deserve to hold office. You know, just like 25 year olds running for president Yeah, it’s the same thing. Requiring someone to be 35 before holding the highest office in the land is the same as forbidding certain political views from ever holding public office. You know you are right. From now on Jews can’t not hold office in the United States. Wait a minute, did I say Jews? I meant Nazis. It’s an easy mistake, one group was treated as less than full citizens by those holding power in their country. But that would never happen here, right? A free society can not ban Nazis and remain free. No matter how many times you repeat it, it just ain’t so. When you remove the freedom of speech, and the freedom of association, from one group, you have taken away freedom. You ignored my lesson about banning Nazis - Commies - Muslims. So I ask again, who decides? Once Nazis are bad, when do others get that label and for how long and how long do we wait to ban them? You don’t like Nazis. I get it. Let it go. There is no more despised group in modern history. The Nazi name will never rise to power again, not in Germany, not in the United States. But the actions you call for are directly from their ideology. Trample the rights of the minority, make them pay, take away their full citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/84 "2012-04-18T18:37:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > They never (let) Roehm out of the closet? They did, in her last episode. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/85 "2012-04-18T18:44:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Saying that the poster’s views were congruent with those of the Nazis attacks the argument. > Saying that the poster would “have made a great Nazi” attacks the person. > > If you must, employ the former. Outside the BBQ Pit, avoid the latter. > > [/Moderating] Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/86 "2012-04-18T18:48:23Z")
“Nazi” is not an acronym. Please stop spelling it NAZI. Thank you. Sincerely, A Grammar Nazi ---
**Author:** ![Blkshp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blkshp/32/7135_2.png) [@Blkshp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blkshp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/87 "2012-04-18T19:27:25Z")
How our existing mechanisms work is pretty well exhibited in the destruction of the KKK in Kentucky in 2008. In short, a civil suit was brought alleging that the Klan incited violence that resulted in a 19 year old being beaten. They lost and a got socked with a $2.5 million judgement that wiped them out. Similarly, the Aryan Nations lost a suit brought by the Southern Poverty Law Center that cost them $6.3 million in 2000. Freedom of speech does have its limits and when those limits are exceeded we have a system that not only responds, but can severly punishnot just individual perpetrators, but organizations that foment criminal action. It’s not a coincidence that as legal entities those types of organizations are subject to a whole series of laws that on one hand protect them, but on the other impose certain responsibilty and enable recourse. Just like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/88 "2012-04-19T00:30:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Nazi” is not an acronym. Please stop spelling it NAZI. Thank you. > > Sincerely, > A Grammar Nazi How is Nazi not an acronym? I know, technically, the acronym is Naso, and Nazi was a parody of that, but… ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/89 "2012-04-19T00:34:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How is Nazi not an acronym? I know, technically, the acronym is Naso, and Nazi was a parody of that, but… For everyone who we just lost: It’s an acronym to the same extent ‘modem’ is an acronym, which is a style a _lot_ more popular in German. It’s formed from taking initial _syllables_, not letters, and sticking them together; as ‘modem’ is formed from ‘ **mo** dulator- **dem** odulator’, ‘Nazi’ is formed from the German noun-phrase-word (that is, a noun phrase without spaces between the elements) ‘ **Na** tionalso **zi** alismus’, which means ‘National Socialism’. Acronyms of that sort are usually not fully capitalized, nor are extremely common acronyms of the common English sort, such as ‘radar’. I was unaware of the earlier ‘Naso’ form, but it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/90 "2012-04-20T02:32:52Z")
I’ve heard the story that it was the Munich Post, an anti-Hitler paper, was the first to regularly call the Nazis, “Nazi” being Bavarian slang for an idiot, a hick, or a simpleton (the name Ignatz having had the same connotations in Bavaria as the name Cletus in the US.) The Nazis resisted it for a while, but eventually inertia took over, and since the Social Democrats were already the Sozis, Nazi became common in imitation of that. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/91 "2012-04-20T05:27:49Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > . . . these filthy b\*stards . . . I think you’re allowed to refer to N\*zis as bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/92 "2012-04-20T06:06:59Z")
I have to agree with the general sentiment of the thread here. The ideology of the Nazis was despicable and is synonymous with evil in the modern world; no one here is going to argue that point. But if we value free speech, we have to allow a modern day Nazi to speak. We’re free to criticize, counter-point, ignore, or ridicule them, but we’re all far better off not banning Nazism and confronting it head-on. For one, it presents as fear or weakness and it gives those people a talking point “look, we’re being repressed, they’re afraid of what we have to say” and it’s the sort of thing that can corrupt a weak mind. You see this sort of argumentation all the time, and it can be convincing to some people. It also gives us an opportunity to respond to the things they say publicly. That is, they could tell a kid behind closed doors all kinds of horrible lies about how the Jews and the blacks have ruined our culture or some stuff, and without another voice to speak out, how might they know they’re being fed lies? Anything they say in the public arena can and will be much more easily shot down. They’ll have to respond to questions when they make those sorts of assertions and people who might otherwise be swayed can at least hear some of both sides. But most importantly, it’s a slippery slope. It’s easy to ban speech that only one in a million even wants to say and the rest see as wrong and hateful. But where do we draw that line? Surely a large majority of people have at least one view or opinion that isn’t particularly popular and, if left to a standard of being in a minority view, could just as easily be banned. If we start doing that, we’re engaging in some of the very same behavior, and that leads down dangerous ideological paths. And even if we ban the Nazi party, what keeps the same people with the same views from reforming under a different name and pushing the same agenda? You can only ban people publicly acknowledging their ideologies, you can’t make them stop thinking it or stop spreading it, not without measures well outside any resemblance of a free society. So yeah, the guy is a huge prick, worthy of great ire, but let’s not lower ourselves to his level. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/93 "2012-04-20T06:07:19Z")
In support of **Captain Amazing** : [Online Etymological Dictionary: Nazi](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Nazi) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/94 "2012-04-20T06:40:22Z")
I also have to admit that I enjoy the mental image of a Capitol Hill lobbyists’ party, to which all registered lobbyists have to be invited. So the Nazi lobbyist is there at the crowded party… …standing in the exact middle of a huge circle of empty space… …which moves with him wherever he goes. Can you imagine the sheer PR toxicity of that guy? He might as well have full-blown Ebola virus for all the contact Washington politicos are going to want to have with him. Found another [interview](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/04/nazi-party-gets-first-lobbyist-on-capitol-hill/) with the Nazi lobbyist: > [@](#): > > John Bowles, 55, said his official status as a lobbyist was something the 53-year-old party planned to “try out for the first time and see if it flies.” > > “I always tell my fellow Americans that they need to practice their constitutional rights or their rights will one day be eroded,” he said. Well now, isn’t that sweet. Always nice to see a political activist taking constitutional rights seriously, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/95 "2012-04-20T06:52:25Z")
So what is the modern nazi platform anyway? I know I saw some other white supremacy group try to use weasel words to say they were not about hate anymore but about celebrating Aryan identity and culture or some obvious bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/96 "2012-04-20T07:27:37Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Aceplace57. you seem like you would have made a great Nazi yourself, since you advocate the arrest of people you disagree politically with. > > Seriously OP, is this thread supposed to be ironic or a joke or something? If you’re serious, well that’s just sad. You have missed the point of America. Godwinized. I can’t believe a thread on Nazis has been Godwinized. Who’d a thunk it? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/97 "2012-04-20T13:09:46Z")
> [@Qin Shi Huangdi](#): > > YogSosoth, would have supported banning the Communist Party during the Cold War in the US since unlike the Nazis today they actually had a superpower backer to promote domestic subversion. Got a cite showing that they received instructions or funds to promote domestic subversions from the USSR? Also, [here’s Hitchens](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM) talking about free speech. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/98 "2012-04-20T14:09:35Z")
Some of the arguments seem to be forgetting that there’s an actual example of a country that has banned the Nazi party. It’s kinda silly to claim that there’s some necessary slippery slope or some end-of-democracy scenario when there’s already an experiment running, and that experiment is doing just fine. The main argument that I see is just that there’s no point in doing so. it doesn’t accomplish anything. You can’t outlaw the ideas themselves, as outlawing ideas breaks the concept of a democracy. All you can do is outlaw the symbols and the word. We can actually look at that example again, and we see that Germany with their restrictions may not be worse than we are, but they aren’t any better either. There’s just no reason to go to all the effort or spend the money. No one who calls themselves a Nazi will ever have power again. The only way they could is if we did outlaw them, so people wound up forgetting they existed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/99 "2012-04-20T14:20:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Some of the arguments seem to be forgetting that there’s an actual example of a country that has banned the Nazi party. It’s kinda silly to claim that there’s some necessary slippery slope or some end-of-democracy scenario when there’s already an experiment running, and that experiment is doing just fine. That’s been discussed a bit in this thread, and I agree there’s no fullscale elimination of free speech rights on the horizon over there. But I think some people would argue that the ban in Germany is evidence that free speech rights there are _not_ fine. I’m not sure how I feel that ban personally. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/100 "2012-04-20T14:39:01Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Calling what we had concentration camps is just a little bit insensitive to what 11 million people in Europe went through over the same period. > [@Ludovic](#): > > But that’s what they were. Calling the extermination camps “concentration camps” is a euphemism. Calling a concentration camp a concentration camp is not insensitive or a dysphemism: it is more accurate. > [@Derleth](#): > > You can only say this by ignoring one of the biggest cases of connotation perpetrated in the previous century. Nonsense, he can say it because it is true. A concentration camp is not an extermination camp, which is why the camps the Nazis set up as labor camps for political and ideological opponents during the 30s were called [concentration camps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps) and the camps set up from 1941/42 were called [extermination camps or death camps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp). Insisting that the two mean the same thing leads to absurdities such as claiming the Nazis were only doing what the British did first by setting up concentration camps in the Boer War with the implication that the British camps are somehow analogous to Nazi death camps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815.md?page=6)