# Nazi Lobbyist in Washington **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815 "2012-04-15T03:11:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/101 "2012-04-20T14:50:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s been discussed a bit in this thread, and I agree there’s no fullscale elimination of free speech rights on the horizon over there. But I think some people would argue that the ban in Germany is evidence that free speech rights there are _not_ fine. I’m not sure how I feel that ban personally. It hasn’t stopped the “National Democratic Party” from causing a lot of issues. It doesn’t quell the ideas, just the slogans they use. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/102 "2012-04-20T15:42:23Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > So? The Green Party, the Libertarian Party, the Natural Law Party, the Constitution Party, and the Reform Party all have people back home and are (or were) somewhat entrenched, and none of them can do jack. You don’t want to take a chance with Nazis > [@Derleth](#): > > The government is neutral to them. The government does allow them to be Nazis. How many of them are crawling out of the woodwork again? At least one, and now he’s a lobbyist > [@Derleth](#): > > No, they can be pushed underground and left to fester in an environment that makes them more paranoid and closer to groups like, say, Aryan Nations and other criminal gangs that we should be rooting out. So let them. I can easily say the opposite, that by allowing them to exist and not impeding their growth, these people will draw support and convince others that their cause is just. I’m unwilling to allow that. I’d rather push them underground and grind them under the boot of government than pretend they have as much legitimacy as any other political party. Anything to make their existence more difficult > [@Derleth](#): > > Yeah, that’s an idea: Ship all the Nazi wackos off to prison where they can learn how to be really fucking scary from the Aryan Nations gang members. Give all the would-be Hitlers some would-be Brownshirts to go drinking with. Or just ban them from government. That’s the less Nazi-like approach 😉 > [@Derleth](#): > > So we should ban the Nazis because we enacted the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968. Don’t dispute my analysis: That’s the best reason I’ve heard so far. Eh, you can play word games all you want when you shorten a complex point into a single soundbite. Observe: You think Nazis are just as legitimate as NAMBLA or your political party of choice > [@Derleth](#): > > More seriously, no, the government can’t affect thoughts to that extent. It can give some people hope, and make others angrier, but it can’t get rid of hatred. It can’t convince people to make progress in a direction they’re not already moving. Look at all the people who are still buttheaded racist scum to this day, decades after the big Civil Rights push. That’s silly, nobody’s banning thoughts. I simply want the political party known as the Nazis (or “Fucking Nazis” if you prefer) to be banned from ever holding office > [@Derleth](#): > > Unless you’re just fetishizing the word ‘Nazi’, you could come back the day after you succeed in banning the Nazis and demand some other group be banned from public discourse. And another. And another. Nope, just Nazis > [@Derleth](#): > > We have banned them from holding power in the only way that matters: They couldn’t win an election if their lives depended on it. One does not have to win elections to have influence > [@Derleth](#): > > No, it will make them more legitimate in the eyes of everyone who’d follow them in the first place, and attract new followers because fuck you. I fail to see how banning a party makes it more legitimate. Maybe in the eyes of adolescent boys, but the Nazis were a legitimate power that took over much of Europe and threatened the world > [@Derleth](#): > > By letting them strut around, we’re _denying_ them cover. They don’t have to resort to dogwhistle politics and code words; they can be idiots right out in public, and let their neighbors know their shame. Or we can ban them and they can still strut around and play politics. They will use dogwhistles and code words whether or not they are in government. Better to make sure they cannot be a part of it. Its not like they’ll simply go “Bleeeh, we’re the Fucking Nazis, gonna kill all the Jews” if we allow them to participate and everyone will see how bad they are, and if we ban them they’ll somehow become more powerful and more sneaky. They’re gonna try to have influence either way, better to make sure they cant ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/103 "2012-04-20T15:51:03Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You don’t want to take a chance with Nazis The party’s existed for 50-odd years. How have they capitalized on their chances so far? > [@](#): > > Maybe in the eyes of adolescent boys, but the Nazis were a legitimate power that took over much of Europe and threatened the world And you think that began with a single registered lobbyist? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/104 "2012-04-20T16:00:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They’re gonna try to have influence either way, better to make sure they cant Except banning the party doesn’t do that. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/105 "2012-04-20T16:07:11Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > The references to Illinois Nazis in the movie “The Blues Brothers” weren’t just weird jokes. They threatened to march in [Skokie, Illinois in the late '70s](http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html). We allow Communist and Socialist political parties, we allow the Ku Klux Klan, and as long as they follow the laws of this country, we should - distasteful as they are - allow a Nazi party to exist. IIRC, the reason the Communist Party was outlawed and that teacher in California cannot be Communists is because they advocate the overthrow of the government. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/106 "2012-04-20T17:07:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > To add to the question “Why not?”-Why not? They were a far greater threat than a few marginalized skinheads. Not to mention most racial violence comes not from these organized groups but from insane individuals (such as the Tulsa shooter for example). I think the Nazis were bigger threats. > [@howye](#): > > Yeah, it’s the same thing. Requiring someone to be 35 before holding the highest office in the land is the same as forbidding certain political views from ever holding public office. Sarcasm aside, why aren’t they similar? I’m not saying they have exactly the same mirror image congruency, but there is a similarity. The similarities are magnified if you look at the arguments for the under 35 rule and arguments for allowing Nazis applied to local government and the presidency. For example: Argument for Nazis: If you ban them, who’s to say your group isn’t next? Similar to: If you ban people under 35, who’s to say they won’t raise it to 45? Argument for Nazis: If you ban Nazis, then you’re not a free society. Similar to: If you ban people under 35, or not a member of the state they live in, or not a citizen, you’re not a free society Argument for Nazis: We shouldn’t restrict speech, its not freedom! Similar to: If you ban shouting fire in a theater or incite others to violence or threaten the president or harass people, its not freedom! There’s a lot of similarities if you want to nitpick hard enough. My biggest problem isn’t with the argument itself, its the fact that people like to pretend there’s absolutely no similarities, or they pretend that their arbitrary line they won’t cross is THE line where freedom ends and tyranny begins and nobody else has a say. I may be supporting a ban on Nazis, but I’m fine with not banning other groups. I just don’t see as big of a threat from any other groups, and yes that includes Communists > [@howye](#): > You know you are right. From now on Jews can’t not hold office in the United States. Wait a minute, did I say Jews? I meant Nazis. It’s an easy mistake, one group was treated as less than full citizens by those holding power in their country. But that would never happen here, right? [/QUOTE] Similar to: Why can’t I be president if I’m not 35? What if you changed it to 45? But that would never happen here, right? > [@howye](#): > > A free society can not ban Nazis and remain free. No matter how many times you repeat it, it just ain’t so. When you remove the freedom of speech, and the freedom of association, from one group, you have taken away freedom. You ignored my lesson about banning Nazis - Commies - Muslims. So I ask again, who decides? Once Nazis are bad, when do others get that label and for how long and how long do we wait to ban them? I believe Germany is free. It is a first world democracy with freedoms and morals. I do not think that just because they’ve banned many Nazi symbols and influences, that they are not free. In this case, Nazism is very personal to them, and they look at it in a different way than most other countries. They’ve decided that they cannot have them around any more. I still think they are a free people. The only real issue I have with Germany is their freaky toilets > [@howye](#): > > You don’t like Nazis. I get it. Let it go. There is no more despised group in modern history. The Nazi name will never rise to power again, not in Germany, not in the United States. But the actions you call for are directly from their ideology. Trample the rights of the minority, make them pay, take away their full citizenship. I don’t mind if I call for similar actions as Nazis if it means more restrictions on Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/107 "2012-04-20T17:12:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The party’s existed for 50-odd years. How have they capitalized on their chances so far? Let’s not take a chance. Especially if everyone’s so quick to agree that the Nazis have no power, they have no influence, and they’ll never hold office again legitimately. If you think I should care so little of Nazis, then you should care just as little about a ban on them. You should be telling yourselves that this ban is symbolic, it’ll never really affect anyone, they’ll never expand it to other groups, and we should just humor him and ban Nazis because it would have the same effect as banning Martians > [@Marley23](#): > > And you think that began with a single registered lobbyist? Its gotta start somewhere. The fact that he feels comfortable enough to actually register as a lobbyist right now tells me things aren’t as bad for Nazis right now as they should be, as it was in the past ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/108 "2012-04-20T17:28:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Let’s not take a chance. We’ve been taking the chance for 50-odd years and nothing has happened, so I put it to you that no chance is being taken. > [@](#): > > If you think I should care so little of Nazis, then you should care just as little about a ban on them. Several posters have already gone to the trouble of explaining to you why this is a false equivalence. I’m not sure why you’re bothering to attempt it at this point. > [@](#): > > Its gotta start somewhere. Review how it started in Germany and maybe you’ll understand why a guy registering as a lobbyist is not something the rest of us are worried about. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/109 "2012-04-20T20:04:52Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Nonsense, he can say it because it is true. Only in an obscure technical sense nobody knows or cares about. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/110 "2012-04-20T22:18:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > You don’t want to take a chance with Nazis Yeah, them Nazis are gonna take over because Nazis and 1933 and Enabling Act and it’s gonna happen _even if everyone hates them_ and _nobody votes for them_. They’re sneaky that way. > [@](#): > > At least one, and now he’s a lobbyist You don’t understand how lobbying works, do you? A lobbyist who doesn’t represent anyone or any interests politicians want to recognize has all the sledgehammer influence of a wet fart in hurricane Katrina. > [@](#): > > So let them. I can easily say the opposite, that by allowing them to exist and not impeding their growth, these people will draw support and convince others that their cause is just. _ **HOW!?!** _ > [@](#): > > Or just ban them from government. That’s the less Nazi-like approach 😉 No, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Eh, you can play word games all you want when you shorten a complex point into a single soundbite. Observe: You think Nazis are just as legitimate as NAMBLA or your political party of choice Depends on how you define ‘legitimate’, and note how you didn’t say ‘influential’ because you _aren’t_ a total blithering moron. > [@](#): > > That’s silly, nobody’s banning thoughts. I simply want the political party known as the Nazis (or “Fucking Nazis” if you prefer) to be banned from ever holding office And later on you say it’s all about the name. So if they translated their name, or just went by their original handle Nasos, you’d be fine with the same people and ideas in the halls of power? > [@](#): > > One does not have to win elections to have influence True in a way that really, really doesn’t help your case. In order to have influence, you need to represent a block of people and/or money and/or more general ‘clout’ (as per Royko) that politicians feel they can’t ignore. The American Nazis don’t. > [@](#): > > I fail to see how banning a party makes it more legitimate. Maybe in the eyes of adolescent boys And that’s the only group these losers will be able to attract, so it would be perfect for them. > [@](#): > > Or we can ban them and they can still strut around and play politics. They will use dogwhistles and code words whether or not they are in government. So, by your own arguments, banning them won’t actually change anything except the name of one group of people. That’s stupid even if you ignore the First Amendment and our fundamental system of government. > [@](#): > > They’re gonna try to have influence either way, better to make sure they cant But by your own arguments above, under your proposed law they’d still be able to have all the influence they can get as long as they don’t use the magic evil name ‘Nazi’. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/111 "2012-04-20T23:09:15Z")
Let’s split the difference: we won’t ban the Nazi party, but we’ll make it illegal for them to kill or terrorize anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/112 "2012-04-20T23:38:55Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Only in an obscure technical sense nobody knows or cares about. Ummm, no. That you are ignorant and unaware of what the words mean doesn’t make them obscure technological jargon or something nobody knows or cares about. It makes it something _you_ don’t know about and apparently refuse to accept, preferring ‘There’s glory for you’ in defining words instead of admitting your error. You are quite simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/113 "2012-04-21T00:19:08Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Calling what we had concentration camps is just a little bit insensitive to what 11 million people in Europe went through over the same period. Not really. They were not death camps, but they were clearly set up with an eye to the British concentration camps of the Boer War. The term “concentration camp” was actually the first term used by the various fear-mongering groups that began to demand that the government lock up all the Japanese-Americans. It is hardly arcane to note that in response for calls for concentration camps we actually set up and populated such camps. A statement that equated Auschwitz and Manzanar would be insulting. Using the word that was initially employed is just historical. ---
**Author:** ![Blkshp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blkshp/32/7135_2.png) [@Blkshp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blkshp)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/114 "2012-04-21T02:04:36Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They’re gonna try to have influence either way, better to make sure they cant This whole banning idea gets messy. That’s what we have drones for, right? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/115 "2012-04-24T18:52:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’ve been taking the chance for 50-odd years and nothing has happened, so I put it to you that no chance is being taken. I could just as well say that German’s banned them for 50-odd years and nothing has happened. > [@Marley23](#): > > Several posters have already gone to the trouble of explaining to you why this is a false equivalence. I’m not sure why you’re bothering to attempt it at this point. Do you mean the people who said that its a slippery slope? I’ve responded to those. Germany has done it for decades and I don’t see them putting Jews or Communists or Catholics on the line yet. A ban on a specific political party can be done effectively without it slipping into anything else. There’s proof of that > [@Marley23](#): > > Review how it started in Germany and maybe you’ll understand why a guy registering as a lobbyist is not something the rest of us are worried about. Better to close all avenues if one is open than to leave a path and assume it won’t be taken advantage of. We’ve had GD topics where people speculated on whether or not the Nazis could have been prevented from rising in Germany. Hitler’s death, crackdowns, a less punitive WW1 treaty were all possibilities. I recall some posters still believed that given the context, the Nazis would still have risen regardless. I think that is a history lesson to apply here. Even if the historical Nazis didn’t start with one man lobbying, the same path to legitimacy isn’t available for him now as it was back then. He’s simply taking advantage of whatever roads are available for him. We should close it before he gets too far into it ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815/116 "2012-04-24T19:00:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I could just as well say that German’s banned them for 50-odd years and nothing has happened. You _could_ ignore the rise of the Nazis, World War II and the occupation of Germany if you wanted, but I’m not sure that would do much to support your argument. > [@](#): > > Better to close all avenues if one is open than to leave a path and assume it won’t be taken advantage of. If you get the same result without closing those avenues - that is, if the Nazis have no power whether they are banned or not, and they have none - it stands to reason that the less-restrictive option is preferred. > [@](#): > > We should close it before he gets too far into it He’s never going to go anywhere. It’s the ultimate absurdity to treat the registration of a Nazi lobbyist as a serious threat. Who’s going to meet with him and what legislation is he going to get passed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-lobbyist-in-washington/618815.md?page=5)