# Nazi on ballot for Montana state legislature as a Republican **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286 "2006-07-06T00:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/61 "2006-07-07T13:38:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But it remains true that the Pubs’ (and, for that matter, the Dems’) slavish service to the business interests is, on the balance, bad for minorities, and for poor and working people generally. [/quote] How so? People get jobs from business, not from government. The only way to escape poverty is through work. It would seem that the best way to help the poor, then, is to help business expand and provide jobs for the poor. The poor certainly aren’t helped out of poverty by welfare. It always amazes me that liberals fail to see that businesses are the ones that provide the jobs that move people out of poverty. > [@](#): > > (Most blacks in America are poor, but most poor people are white.) Most blacks are poor, huh? Don’t think so. Less than a quarter of black people are below the poverty level. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/62 "2006-07-08T15:22:02Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] How so? People get jobs from business, not from government. [/quote] Both, **Renob.** (I’m a public librarian myself.) [QUOTE=Renob] The only way to escape poverty is through work. It would seem that the best way to help the poor, then, is to help business expand and provide jobs for the poor. The poor certainly aren’t helped out of poverty by welfare. [/quote] If true, that does not contradict my point: When government does whatever the business interests want and prioritizes their needs over all other (which it generally does, these past 25 years at least), that **is** bad for minorites and bad for the poor. If you want to dispute **that**. . . we’ll have to start another thread. [QUOTE=Renob] Most blacks are poor, huh? Don’t think so. Less than a quarter of black people are below the poverty level. [/QUOTE] I might have to research that. “Most” might no longer be true but “less than a quarter” sounds way low. Cite? And I hope you’re not basing that on the official [HHS Poverty Guidelines,](http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/03poverty.htm) which currently define “poverty” as an income at or below $18,400 for a family of four. That’s nowhere close to realistic. I make more than three times that and I live (alone and by no means extravagantly, in a small town with a relatively low cost of living) from paycheck to paycheck. (In fact, I might have to start moonlighting soon just to make ends meet.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/63 "2006-07-09T13:26:17Z")
Found a cite: The poverty rate among African-Americans (going by the official poverty line, which I dispute in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=378866) thread) is [24.7%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-americans#Economics) as of 2004. That’s an improvement over the past (down from 26.5% in 1998), but the same article notes the median income of African-Americans is still 65% that of whites, and there remains a difference of 5.2 years in life expectancy. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/64 "2006-07-09T18:50:54Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Both, **Renob.** (I’m a public librarian myself.) [/quote] Government jobs are only recycling money that was made by private companies. Government jobs are funded by taxes on productive businesses. Without these businesses, there would be no government jobs. > [@](#): > > If true, that does not contradict my point: When government does whatever the business interests want and prioritizes their needs over all other (which it generally does, these past 25 years at least), that **is** bad for minorites and bad for the poor. If you want to dispute **that**. . . we’ll have to start another thread. I disagree wholeheartedly. The plight of minorities and the poor has improved quite a lot over the past 25 years. When business is succesful, more people have jobs and fewer people are in poverty. However, as you say, another thread would be in order to explore this more thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/65 "2006-07-09T20:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Government jobs are only recycling money that was made by private companies. Government jobs are funded by taxes on productive businesses. Without these businesses, there would be no government jobs. [/quote] So? Without government, there would be no private-sector jobs, not beyond the most primitive economic level. That’s what we see whenever government [fails to be effective.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state) As I recently noted in [this thread on Sweden](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=378542): > [@Charlie Tan](#): > > However, the problem Sweden faces is that not enough people work in the private sector (where wealth is created) - the majority is working for the public sector and a lot of the tax revenue is used paying for publicly employed people, not helping those in need. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never forget that the public sector **also** creates wealth. > > I’ve sometimes heard my brother (an engineer) complain that there are too many lawyers in America (on which point I agree) and that this is a bad thing because, “Lawyers don’t **produce** anything!” No, they don’t produce anything you can hold in your hands, but so what? Neither do retail clerks, waitresses, soldiers, police officers, firefighters – but they all perform valuable economic functions whose lack we would sorely miss. And so do civil servants of all kinds. OK, almost all kinds; I’m more than willing to entertain arguments that society would be better off if this or that particular agency were pared down or abolished. But that’s a matter of details and policy choices. In general, it’s true. I’m a public librarian myself, and if public libraries were abolished I don’t believe for a moment the private sector could or would fill that void. There are private-sector businesses that do something similar – bookstores – and there’s need for both and room for both, but there are important differences between the two. And when I help people meet their daily needs for information, education or entertainment (at no **direct** cost to the user), I **am** contributing to the wealth of our society. > > So there. 🙂 > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Remember, also (and this relates to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262108) old thread about whether retirees really place a “burden” on the economy), that government employees (and, for that matter, recipients of government aid) do not simply burn their salaries. They **spend** them – stimulating the economy, providing work and opportunities for others, keeping the wheels spinning 'round and 'round. > > Take it all around, the relationship of the public sector to the private sector is symbiotic, not parasitic. (You could make a case for the existence of some parasites in government, of course – and an even better case WRT to many private businesscritters.) In the above dialogue I am not, of course, flatly contradicting **Charlie Tan,** merely pointing out that he needs to look at the whole picture. There may well be situations where government revenue/spending accounts for more of a country’s GDP than is good for the country. Or **less.** But it’s not an either/or thing. Except in very rare circumstances, government is **not** simply a useless parasitic growth on the economy, like mistletoe on a tree. [quote=] However, as you say, another thread would be in order to explore this more thoroughly. [/QUOTE] I’ve started at least a dozen GD threads this week. You do this one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/66 "2006-07-10T23:09:28Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Reasonable people can and do oppose Affirmative Action. Many of us consider it a form of officially sanctioned racism. Some people don’t pit the two against each other. In fact, some people recognize that many businesspeople are minorities and many minorities are businesspeople. [/QUOTE] So your position would be that racists and minorities are both deluded in perceiving the Republican Party as the party of racism. Is that what I am hearing? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/67 "2006-07-11T13:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] A little self-examination on their part would be a start. Why did Stuart choose the Pub rather than the Dem label? [/QUOTE] I dunno- why do all of Lyndon LaRouche’s nutball followers run as Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/68 "2006-07-11T14:16:27Z")
Moore is a hate monger? whew . He points out the evils of capitalism as it morphs into a dangerous idealogical machine that threatens the world. War for all money, for the chosen few. No loyalty to any country, just money and power. Governments lie and must be keld accoutable. Sorry The truth is out there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/69 "2006-07-11T14:26:32Z")
[QUOTE=astorian] I dunno- why do all of Lyndon LaRouche’s nutball followers run as Democrats? [/QUOTE] MY WAG, it’s because LaRouche started as a Trotskyist Commie. In the '60s he even used the pen-name [from Lenin and Marx. Some Trots migrated to the flip side and became NeoCons – we’ve covered that many times in this forum – but LaRouche kept on drifting around the left side for a while – in the '70s he started organizations called National Caucus of Labor Committees and the U.S. Labor Party. I guess the Dem label seemed to fit better, even though he’s always been highly critical of mainstream Dems. Maybe he hoped to take over the party from the inside. [url=[Entryism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entryism)]“Entryism”](]“Lyn Marcus”[/url) is a venerable Trotskyist tactic (which has never actually worked, AFAIK.) From Stuart’s POV – white-supremacists I’ve read seem to be just as critical of the Pubs; but at least the Pubs are the party dedicated to limiting immigration. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/70 "2006-07-11T14:28:33Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Moore is a hate monger? whew . He points out the evils of capitalism as it morphs into a dangerous idealogical machine that threatens the world. War for all money, for the chosen few. No loyalty to any country, just money and power. Governments lie and must be keld accoutable. Sorry The truth is out there. [/QUOTE] But that’s the point, you see. Moore hates all that stuff. Gosh-darn hate monger! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/71 "2006-07-11T16:39:09Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] So your position would be that racists and minorities are both deluded in perceiving the Republican Party as the party of racism. Is that what I am hearing? [/QUOTE] No. They know that the Dems are the party of preferential handouts. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/72 "2006-07-11T17:07:41Z")
That was a whoosh, right? Please tell me that was a whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/73 "2006-07-11T18:19:22Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No. They know that the Dems are the party of preferential handouts. [/QUOTE] Racists often seem to be under the illusion (or, at least speak as if they believed) that welfare is all about feeding lazy blacks at the expense of hardworking whites, in (perhaps wilfull) ignorance of the fact that the majority of recipients of public assistance are white and alway have been. But I never expected such ignorance from **you.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/74 "2006-07-11T18:22:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Racists often seem to be under the illusion (or, at least speak as if they believed) that welfare is all about feeding lazy blacks at the expense of hardworking whites, in (perhaps wilfull) ignorance of the fact that the majority of recipients of public assistance are white and alway have been. But I never expected such ignorance from **you.** [/QUOTE] Unless you meant affirmative action programs – which are preferential but are **not** handouts. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/75 "2006-07-11T20:38:28Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] From Stuart’s POV – white-supremacists I’ve read seem to be just as critical of the Pubs; but at least the Pubs are the party dedicated to limiting immigration. [/QUOTE] The pubs oppose immigration, the Pubs try to limit voting rights for minorities by fair means and foul, the Pubs oppose affirmative action … all of it, of course, not out of racism, but other much better motives. :rolleyes: Anybody ELSE seen that 800-pound gorilla sitting comfortably in the Pubbie’s big tent? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/76 "2006-07-12T15:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Unless you meant affirmative action programs – which are preferential but are **not** handouts. [/QUOTE] Let’s hope he didn’t mean tax cuts for the wealthy, paid for by increased government debt. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/77 "2006-07-12T16:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] That was a whoosh, right? Please tell me that was a whoosh. [/QUOTE] No, that was a pretty good summation of the case. Racial politics and pandering to feminists and gays is pretty much what the Dems are all about these days. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/78 "2006-07-12T16:31:01Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] pandering to feminists and gays is pretty much what the Dems are all about these days. [/QUOTE] God forbid a political party in the United State of America should be all about equality… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/79 "2006-07-12T16:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] No, that was a pretty good summation of the case. Racial politics and pandering to feminists and gays is pretty much what the Dems are all about these days. [/QUOTE] Even if true, none of that involves “preferential handouts.” ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286/80 "2006-07-12T18:16:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Even if true, none of that involves “preferential handouts.” [/QUOTE] Unless they’re “handing out” foldout posters of well-hung studs. That would be preferential to the demographics in question (bitches and fags). 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-on-ballot-for-montana-state-legislature-as-a-republican/363286.md?page=3)