# Nazi swastika orientation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703 "2017-11-04T18:57:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/1 "2017-11-04T18:57:16Z")
No, not that kind of orientation. I see two versions of the Nazi swastika on display in photos from the 1930’s and 40’s. One where the swastika arms are all either horizontal or vertical, and another where the previously mentioned design is rotated 45 degrees to give a ‘diamond’ shape to it. Also, most of the versions I see are right handed in orientation, though some do appear as left handed. Is that just due to them being on flags being viewed from the opposite side? Any rhyme/reason for the different versions? Were there other swastika orientations used by the Nazis, and if so what did they symbolize? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/2 "2017-11-04T19:00:04Z")
actually I’m told by the skinhead members of the family it was rotated because it removed the ancient religious connation the symbol had ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/3 "2017-11-04T19:04:03Z")
[The Master has this to say, if it helps:](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/440/was-the-swastika-actually-an-old-native-american-symbol) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/4 "2017-11-04T19:16:22Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > actually I’m told by the skinhead members of the family it was rotated because it removed the ancient religious connation the symbol had Ancient swastikas had both orientations. The idea that one was is “good” and one way is “bad” is a later invention, and not supported by history. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/5 "2017-11-04T19:17:14Z")
Unfortunately TPM doesn’t say much about what the different orientations meant to the Nazis who were displaying them. And that’s what I’m looking for; not what they meant in ancient times, amongst the various other cultures that deployed them. But what they meant to your typical german Nazi during Hitler’s days in power, or even what they meant to your typical german Nazi swastika geek during the same period. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/6 "2017-11-04T23:34:34Z")
Rudyard Kipling used the “Nazi” orientation – offset 45 degrees as a diamond, noted above – for end-papers in several of his published books. To him, it pointed to India, not to fascism. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/7 "2017-11-05T00:53:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Rudyard Kipling used the “Nazi” orientation – offset 45 degrees as a diamond, noted above – for end-papers in several of his published books. To him, it pointed to India, not to fascism. A few pre-Nazi uses were tilted at 45 degrees, sometimes as decoration on clothing items. For instance, as worn by Clara Bow: [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RZvJ0w3upJQ/UPwLYyZvxJI/AAAAAAAAYlQ/eyq99nu4XsM/s640/swastika+clara+bow.jpg) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RZvJ0w3upJQ/UPwLYyZvxJI/AAAAAAAAYlQ/eyq99nu4XsM/s640/swastika+clara+bow.jpg) Occasionally people will interpret that picture as indicating that Bow was a Nazi sympathizer. But it looks like a picture from the 20s before use a Nazi emblem was well known (the cloche hat was very much in fashion then). Also, she retired from the film industry in 1931, and probably ceased being an often-photographed celebrity. As a “good luck” emblem, it was often made into pendants as well, sometimes with the chain attached at the end of an arm so it hung at a 45 degree angle. The patches worn by the US 45th Infantry Division in the pre-Nazi era had the swastika inscribed offset inside a square, but the patch itself was worn as a diamond shape so that the swastika was still displayed unrotated. However, I would say the Nazis were the ones who “popularized” that style of display. I’m not sure they had any symbolism in mind, rather than just thinking it looked more striking that way. Perhaps they were even savvy enough to deliberately display the emblem in a variety of forms to establish their use across a wide variety of variants, as modern day companies sometimes do with their trademarks. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/8 "2017-11-05T00:55:40Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Ancient swastikas had both orientations. The idea that one was is “good” and one way is “bad” is a later invention, and not supported by history. I am aware of clockwise and counterclockwise, but are there examples of using it in the X or diagonal formation? I particularly associate the diagonal rotation (particularly when within a circle) with Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/9 "2017-11-05T19:37:50Z")
I think the only kind of swastika which is uniquely Nazi and was never used by anyone else is the kind where the swastika itself is deformed to fit in a diamond, or lozenge, shape, as opposed to being square, as seen in the logo of [the National Socialist German Student’s League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Students%27_League). ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/10 "2017-11-05T22:03:35Z")
Regarding clockwise or counter orientation, [this site](http://www.loeser.us/flags/germany_note_1.html), which seems pretty thorough, says > [@](#): > > (T)he most common version had the swastika on both sides “right-facing,” (but) there were flags that displayed the swastika on the reverse side as a “through and through” or mirror image, so the flag had a “right-facing” swastika on the front (or obverse) side and a “left-facing” swastika on the back (or reverse) side. . . . The most common reason given for using the mirror image design on the reverse side is cost related. A large national flag was always sewn with double-ply (two layers) of cloth and always had the circle sewn on both sides, a more expensive process. The Handelsflagge was usually printed, not sewn, and usually was single-ply. The use of the mirror image swastika design was simply the result of using the less expensive one layer cloth material and a way of eliminating potential reverse-shadowing of the dark swastika on the white circle, especially in bright sun light. In other words, no symbolic significance. Although I can’t prove it (how could I?), I am virtually certain that the same applies to diagonal versus vertical orientation. The Nazi flag, as designed in 1920 by Adolf himself, of course had a black diagonal clockwise swastika on a white circle within a red background. But vertical orientation within specialized contexts (for example, on military standards, flagpoles, jewelry, or special flags such as [Deutschland Erwache](http://www.collectorsmilitaria.com/deutschland_erwache_standard_flag_sp.htm)) was never uncommon. Hitler discusses the swastika for three pages in _Mein Kampf_ and never says anything about any significance to these design variations. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazi-swastika-orientation/800703/11 "2017-11-05T22:37:59Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Regarding clockwise or counter orientation, [this site](http://www.loeser.us/flags/germany_note_1.html), which seems pretty thorough, says In other words, no symbolic significance. Thank you for that cogent summary. That closes the question nicely as far as I’m concerned. Much obliged.