# Nazir Ahmed and other ignorant fucks of his ilk **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621 "2005-12-29T20:26:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/21 "2005-12-30T15:06:47Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Or about the even greater number of men murdered in general. Men are killed by other men, not as victims of domestic violence. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/22 "2005-12-30T15:46:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Men are killed by other men, not as victims of domestic violence. But if we just cared enough about murder, it wouldn’t happen, right? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/23 "2005-12-30T15:52:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Men are killed by other men, not as victims of domestic violence. What planet do you live on? Women are responsible for a substantial percentage of domestic homicides, even when self-defense is excluded. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/24 "2005-12-30T15:59:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Men are killed by other men, not as victims of domestic violence. Gay couples can’t have domestic violence issues? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/25 "2005-12-31T01:27:46Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > The twinkie defense did not work here Actually, it **did work**. Dan White was _not_ convicted of murder for assassinating his political rivals George Moscone & Harvey Milk, but only of the lesser charge of “voluntary manslaughter”. He got a very light sentence, and eventually served only 5 years and 1 month in prison for the murder of 2 city officials and attempted murder of 2 others. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/26 "2005-12-31T03:37:36Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Actually, it **did work**. > Dan White was _not_ convicted of murder for assassinating his political rivals George Moscone & Harvey Milk, but only of the lesser charge of “voluntary manslaughter”. He got a very light sentence, and eventually served only 5 years and 1 month in prison for the murder of 2 city officials and attempted murder of 2 others. It is worth noting that excessive consumption of Twinkies was used as one symptom of the fact that White was suffering from a mental illness (depression) at the time, not as something excusing the killings. I think someone who is suffering from severe mental problems cannot be considered as criminally responsible of their actions as someone who is completely sane. See [this article](http://www.snopes.com/legal/twinkie.htm) on Snopes. > [@xtisme](#): > > I’ve heard all my life that other cultures should be respected whether or not we agree with them…even if they do distasteful things. I remember a conversation years ago about female circumcisions, and how I had to be understanding and not look down on them because its just another culture, etc etc. In all fairness, while I think that female circumcision is in general a barbaric practice (especially given the conditions in which it is often practiced), and always useless, some forms of it, for example Sunna circumcision (sole removal of the clitoral prepuce, scroll down on [this page](http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm1.htm)) do not seem to be much more traumatic than male circumcision. Male circumcision is a cultural practice that I find strange, but it is very popular in many parts of the world and seems to be a religious requirement for Jewish and Muslim males. Some people see male circumcision as an aberration and want to outlaw it, but they are quite rare, and other people do claim benefits to the practice. So what is the real difference, if it isn’t that male circumcision is practiced by some Western peoples while Sunna female circumcision is not? ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/27 "2005-12-31T15:14:47Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Can you imagine what the Pit would be like if we cared as much about violence against women and children in this country as we do about violence against women and children in a country 5,000 miles away? In fairness, threads against violence to women and children in the US turn up frequently in the Pit. Probably far more frequently than threads about violence to women and children in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/28 "2005-12-31T18:18:14Z")
This is a horrible story, and I’m glad that what would be isolated shameful incidents are being brought up in an International forum as examples of what not to do. Honor killing does happen, and it is a problem that we can see an end to in our lifetimes. But this guy is just a bad person. No need to generalize that to his entire country/culture. The murderous and insane of all kinds are known for spouting all kinds of pseudo-religious stuff while doing their bad deeds. This doesn’t mean they are representative of their religion, country, or culture. We are too quick to label any crime in a Muslim country an example of Islam- and of course only the most henious crimes get our attention. Let’s wait and see how Pakistan’s justice system, people, and media treats him before we start getting all rightous. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/29 "2005-12-31T22:48:10Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > Fifteen or twenty years ago a Mexican man named Ramon Salcedo thought his American wife was cheating on him so he killed her, her boss, a couple of her coworkers, and slit the throats of their three young daughters. I think the oldest one might have been four years old. Everyone died except one of the daughters. Ramon fled to Mexico and was apprehended shortly afterward. A reporter asked the admittedly lame question, “Are you sorry you did it?” and his answer was, “Not really.” > … > I hoped to find a link about the Ramon Salcedo story, but his crimes were before the advent of the internet and apparently not sensational enough to be on the internet now, which is pretty hard to believe. If I remember correctly, his wife was an aspiring model and one of the fashion magazines did a long article about how she ended up with this jerk. Anybody remember? His full name is **Ramón Salcido Bojórquez** (note the spelling of **Salcido** ). There’s not _much_ about him on the Web, but I did find [this](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200211/ai_n9162352): > [@](#): > > In April 1989, he slit the throats of his two young daughters, knifed to death his 12-year-old sister-in-law, bludgeoned and knifed to death his mother-in-law, and shot and murdered his wife. Finally, he drove to the winery where he was employed and shot and killed his boss. A jury convicted him of six counts of murder and sentenced him to death. > [@bluethree](#): > > On the plus side, I’m pretty sure he was executed already. According to the Wikipedia article on [San Quentin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Quentin_State_Prison), he’s still on California’s Death Row (usual disclaimers about Wikipedia’s accuracy apply, of course). > [@bluethree](#): > > Since honor killing actually is a cultural artifact of Pakistan, we might ask ourselves why Pakistan is our ally. And why the hell is Saudi Arabia our ally? The mind boggles. Geopolitics trumps human rights considerations. SA has oil, and Pakistan is in an extraordinarily strategic location (plus, they have nukes). [Yes, I’m aware that your questions were probably rhetorical, but many people underestimate Pakistan’s geographic value.] ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/30 "2005-12-31T23:13:39Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > But this guy is just a bad person. No need to generalize that to his entire country/culture. The murderous and insane of all kinds are known for spouting all kinds of pseudo-religious stuff while doing their bad deeds. This doesn’t mean they are representative of their religion, country, or culture. We are too quick to label any crime in a Muslim country an example of Islam- and of course only the most henious crimes get our attention. Let’s wait and see how Pakistan’s justice system, people, and media treats him before we start getting all rightous. He’s not a “representative,” but his culture implicitly supports his actions. Just like pre-civil-rights-south culture implicitly condoned racially motivated lynchings, and like a culture that condones lesser rights for homosexuals implicitly condones gaybashing. The reason hate speech is not protected by the constitution is that hate speech contributes to the sense of cultural “permission” that hate-crime perpetrators feel supports their actions. This man feels that his culture required him to commit this act. Now, of course, we’re talking about what HE FELT to be condoned, which is not the same as what was ACTUALLY condoned. I understand that. But that’s where the “implicit” part comes in. If such crimes are under-punished, the government can protest all they want, the “message” sent is still one of implicit connivance at such crimes. Though silence may seem passive, silence in the face of an evil status quo amounts to an active support of that evil. Not to say this guy is not fully responsible for his actions. But these crimes would diminish if it was universally understood within that culture that a MURDERER in the family brings more dishonor than an adulterer. To that extent, the culture bears some responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/31 "2005-12-31T23:35:56Z")
> [@Antonius Block:According to the Wikipedia article on \[San Quentin](#): > > ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San\_Quentin\_State\_Prison](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Quentin_State_Prison)), he’s still on California’s Death Row (usual disclaimers about Wikipedia’s accuracy apply, of course). He is still alive. California only very rarely executes anyone. (I think Tookie Williams’ was the thirteenth since the reinstitution of the death penalty.) I’m from Sonoma County and vividly recall the period of time while Salcido was a fugitive, as he had been spotted all over the place before he fled to Mexico. It was terrible, and very frightening. AFAIK, and I remember discussing this in a Women & Religion course in college, female circumsion practices are not Muslim at all, but pre-Islamic cultural institutions. I seriously doubt there’s anything about it in the Qur’an or Hadith. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/32 "2006-01-01T00:32:43Z")
Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace\_be\_upon\_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251) I think that’s the solitary hadith that speaks of it though. ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/33 "2006-01-01T08:14:08Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The reason hate speech is not protected by the constitution is that hate speech contributes to the sense of cultural “permission” that hate-crime perpetrators feel supports their actions. Are you talking about the U.S. Constitution? “Hate speech” laws most certainly are unconstitutional. [http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-7675.ZS.html](http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-7675.ZS.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/34 "2006-01-01T13:29:10Z")
What a difference a vowel makes. All these years I thought it was Salcedo. Turns out there is lots about him on the web. Here’s a snippet: \* April 1989, Ramon Salcido, now 43, piled his three daughters in a car and drove them to a landfill. He stood behind the oldest girl, Sofia, 4, and held her head with his left hand. Then he slit her throat with a fishing knife and tossed her down a hill. He also slit the throat of his daughter, Teresa, 22 months. Both were nearly decapitated. He slashed the throat of his 3-year-old daughter, Carmina, who survived to tell authorities, “Daddy cut me,” according to trial testimony and media reports. He also fatally stabbed his mother-in-law and her two daughters, who were 12 and 8. He fatally shot his wife, Angela. Then he went to the Grand Cru Winery in Glen Ellen, Calif., where he worked as a forklift operator. There, he shot his supervisor to death. In a letter to USA TODAY, Salcido, who is on death row at San Quentin State Prison in California, included pamphlets with drawings. He does not admit in his writings to the killings. “On April of 1989, a terrible tragedy took place in which I lost seven people that I loved the most, including among them my wife and two of my daughters. Thank God one of my daughters survived!”\* ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/35 "2006-01-01T15:55:11Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > But this guy is just a bad person. No need to generalize that to his entire country/culture. The murderous and insane of all kinds are known for spouting all kinds of pseudo-religious stuff while doing their bad deeds. This doesn’t mean they are representative of their religion, country, or culture. We are too quick to label any crime in a Muslim country an example of Islam- and of course only the most henious crimes get our attention. Let’s wait and see how Pakistan’s justice system, people, and media treats him before we start getting all rightous. Except that we can generalize this, not in terms of religion, but in terms of culture. Anne Garrels of NPR reported on “honor killings” in Iraq, and focused on one girl’s story. The girl had been kidnapped and released, but because the family couldn’t be sure she hadn’t been raped, a cousin killed her on the chance she was and no one questioned why the girl had to be killed. (The story is [here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5043032), and there are links to other stories, including one from March about Turkish “honor killings” in Germany.) Garrels’ story made it clear that these killings aren’t an Islamic practice; in fact, Islam as a religion is not misogynist as most Americans tend to believe… But tribal roots run very deep, and many of these misogynist customs stem from that. The sad thing is, these killings are so accepted in the Middle East that the odds of the killer being prosecuted is small. At least one Middle Eastern country, Turkey, is trying to eradicate the practice, but there is still a lot of support for it in the rural areas. ([cite](http://www.somaliaonline.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001629)) Robin ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/36 "2006-01-01T21:41:42Z")
Well, yes, honor killings are a problem. I guess I don’t consider this really representative of honor killings. It doesn’t diminish the horror of honor killings to admit that killing all of your female offspring isn’t a part of anyone’s culture. In the fight against these things, it is important for us to retain the moral high ground. And sensationalizing every bad thing that happens in a Muslim country as an example of Muslim culture isn’t going to give us that- it is just going to promote an us vs. them mentality that will discourage honest examination and change. Let’s wait and see how Pakistan handles this. The very fact that it is news implies that it is unusual. The first paragraph said this crime “shocked” Pakistan- in the way that, say, stoning someone to death wouldn’t have shocked Taliban Afghanistan. If he gets off with a slap on the wrist, then we have plenty of fuel for outrage. But he is prosecuted and punished, I’m not sure where we can claim his crimes are any different or more culturally accepted than any other crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/37 "2006-01-01T21:55:09Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Well, yes, honor killings are a problem…I guess I don’t consider this really representative of honor killings. _Conventional_ honor killings are, one assumes, much nicer. > [@](#): > > Let’s wait and see how Pakistan handles this. The very fact that it is news implies that it is unusual. Let us review key passages in the article cited in the OP. \*"Hundreds of girls and women are murdered by male relatives each year in this conservative Islamic nation, and rights groups said Wednesday such “honor killings” will only stop when authorities get serious about punishing perpetrators. The independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan said that in more than half of such cases that make it to court, most end with cash settlements paid by relatives to the victims’ families, although under a law passed last year, the minimum penalty is 10 years, the maximum death by hanging."\* ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/38 "2006-01-02T15:16:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t know of anyone, not even the most diehard multiculturalist, who would say we shouldn’t judge practices like revenge killing. It really didn’t make any sense to reference that point of view in your OP. That was a caricature of multiculturalism that only an extreme nutjob would promote. Better to just admit an error and move on, **XT**. I do…know of such a person, that is. I should preface this by saying I do not regard myself as conservative. I had this discussion years ago with a young lady at my college. She maintained that, _in general_, sexist traditions overseas were all right for them because “that’s how they were raised” and “that’s all they know”. I brought up the examples of female infibulation/clitoridectomy (yes, I know that women often drive this practice) and honor killings. She clarified her point by explaining that _I_, as a Western male, could not in any way express superiority over women, or mistreat them, but that men from _other_ cultures could, and she would forgive them and regard it as normal…and lift no hand to stop them. She asserted “they don’t know any different”. I pointed out that they’re wearing Nikes and watching our music videos and they have, in fact, been exposed to our Western views of women. She reiterated that they can still do this kind of thing, and that I cannot. Incidentally, she also claimed to like her religion “because you can pick and choose for yourself which parts are true.” :rolleyes: Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/39 "2006-01-02T15:57:57Z")
**xtisme** , please limit use of copyrighted articles to a _brief_ quotation. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621/40 "2006-01-02T16:00:55Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > AFAIK, and I remember discussing this in a Women & Religion course in college, female circumsion practices are not Muslim at all, but pre-Islamic cultural institutions. I seriously doubt there’s anything about it in the Qur’an or Hadith. It isn’t limited to muslim populations, anyway. It’s done also by christians and animists in the same areas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nazir-ahmed-and-other-ignorant-fucks-of-his-ilk/337621.md?page=3)