# NBA Hawks owner to sell team after revelations of racist emails from 2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 7, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779 "2014-09-07T16:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/21 "2014-09-08T00:05:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By that logic, why would white people _start_ coming just because they have a white cheerleader and play country music? It’s your argument. You tell me why his changes will drive away black fans. > [@Marley23](#): > > I understand the guy didn’t say he hates black people, and nobody’s saying he did. But he wants to get a whiter crowd to buy tickets and says the number of black fans at the arenas hinders that goal. And the bigger picture is also relevant: he’s the owner of a team in a league that’s (I think) 80% black in a city that is majority-black. And if you look at the broader Atlanta metro area, it sounds like the Hawks fans match the overall population, but he doesn’t feel that’s profitable enough. That’s without getting into any broader economic and racial concerns. I think it’s very easy to understand why people would find this offensive, and I don’t think they’re wrong. He may only want white people there because they have more money, but he’s very upfront about the fact that he wants more white people. You’re wrong about the demographics of Atlanta. Like I said before, the metro area is 55% white, 35% black, and a mix for the last 10%. So if the arena is indeed 70%, blacks are over represented by a factor of 2. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/22 "2014-09-08T01:13:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Given those choices, Levenson said “Let’s get white fans who don’t want to be near black people. They have more money.” Again, I think it’s easy to see why people would object to this. You can work to bring in other groups of people with more money without actively trying to downplay or neglect the fans you already have. It’s highly objectionable. It’s arguably grounds for him to lose the team. I don’t think it’s racist, and I think calling it racist cheapens the word. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/23 "2014-09-08T01:16:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And he wants to do that by attracting white people who don’t want to be around too many black people. He’s very upfront about this, and he’s willing to go to some real lengths to downplay how many black people are in the crowd, too: And, as I noted, he would be just as happy if the people filling those seats were black. He does not want to fill the arena with white people, he wants to fill it with people who buy tickets on a regular basis, particularly premium ones. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/24 "2014-09-08T01:26:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s your argument. You tell me why his changes will drive away black fans. Because he is changing many of the things they presumably like. Yes, it doesn’t HAVE to be an either/or proposition, but when you actively suggest changing things Black people probably like in order to cater to White bigots, driving away Blacks is a highly likely outcome even if it’s just to avoid being around racist White people. > [@treis](#): > > You’re wrong about the demographics of Atlanta. Like I said before, the metro area is 55% white, 35% black, and a mix for the last 10%. So if the arena is indeed 70%, blacks are over represented by a factor of 2. Actually, you are wrong. You have it pretty much backwards. See [here](http://www.city-data.com/city/Atlanta-Georgia.html), [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108481.html), and [here](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/13/1304000.html). Blacks by all accounts are 50%+ of the Atlanta population. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/25 "2014-09-08T01:27:24Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > If white people spend more money than black people at the same event why on earth is it racist to say you want more white people to come? > > There are cultural differences at play here and it’s asinine when people pretend they aren’t there just because it may sound racist. This was the exact argument used by many owners of segregated lunch counters that, while they were not personally racist, their customers were racist and they were simply catering to them. It didn’t fly back then and it shouldn’t fly now. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/26 "2014-09-08T01:35:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Because he is changing many of the things they presumably like. Yes, it doesn’t HAVE to be an either/or proposition, but when you actively suggest changing things Black people probably like in order to cater to White bigots, driving away Blacks is a highly likely outcome even if it’s just to avoid being around racist White people. What? Are they going to stop coming if the Hawks get a white cheerleader or play some country music? > [@brickbacon](#): > > Actually, you are wrong. You have it pretty much backwards. See [here](http://www.city-data.com/city/Atlanta-Georgia.html), [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108481.html), and [here](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/13/1304000.html). Blacks by all accounts are 50%+ of the Atlanta population. That’s just counting the actual city of Atlanta. The demographics of the metro area are what I listed. See here for one cite: > **[Demographics of Atlanta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta#Metro_Atlanta)** > > Atlanta is the capital and largest city in the state of Georgia. It ranks as the 36th-most populous city in the United States, and the eighth-most populous in the southeastern region. 2020 census results varied dramatically with previous Census Bureau estimates, counting a record 498,715 residents. Atlanta is the core city of the eighth most populous United States metropolitan area at 6,104,803 (est. 2020), with a combined statistical area of 6,930,423. For the first time since the 1960 Cen At... ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/27 "2014-09-08T01:35:47Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Because he is changing many of the things they presumably like. Yes, it doesn’t HAVE to be an either/or proposition, but when you actively suggest changing things Black people probably like in order to cater to White bigots, driving away Blacks is a highly likely outcome even if it’s just to avoid being around racist White people. > > Actually, you are wrong. You have it pretty much backwards. See [here](http://www.city-data.com/city/Atlanta-Georgia.html), [here](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108481.html), and [here](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/13/1304000.html). Blacks by all accounts are 50%+ of the Atlanta population. You’re both right. _City of_ Atlanta (450k people) follow Brickbacon’s stats. _Metropolitan_ Atlanta (5.5 million people) follow treis’s stats. ETA: Simulpost with Treis… ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/28 "2014-09-08T01:38:36Z")
Good lord! Not racist. By that logic: If media companies charge more to advertise to the 18-49 demographic, does that make them bigots against children and old people? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/29 "2014-09-08T01:42:03Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > This was the exact argument used by many owners of segregated lunch counters that, while they were not personally racist, their customers were racist and they were simply catering to them. It didn’t fly back then and it shouldn’t fly now. Most of them were lying. Do you think Levenson was lying? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/30 "2014-09-08T01:50:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What? Are they going to stop coming if the Hawks get a white cheerleader or play some country music? I don’t know. Why would White people start coming for those reasons? You can’t simultaneous argue that more of things White people generally like doesn’t means less of things Black people generally like if it’s fairly zero sum, and the explicit goal is to make the crowd less Black. > [@treis](#): > > That’s just counting the actual city of Atlanta. The demographics of the metro area are what I listed. See here for one cite: > > [Demographics of Atlanta - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta#Metro_Atlanta) Which, of course, is not what you said. It also doesn’t justify your comment that Blacks were over-represented unless you think the Hawks, who play in Atlanta proper, should for some reason draw disproportionately from the outer metro area. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/31 "2014-09-08T01:56:33Z")
Actually, in the passage you quoted **Brickbacon** , **treis** specifically mentioned the Metro Atlanta area. And the argument that a team should only concern themselves with the 450k market within the city limits while dismissing the 5 million people surrounding the city limits is… odd. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/32 "2014-09-08T01:57:08Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I don’t know. Why would White people start coming for those reasons? You can’t simultaneous argue that more of things White people generally like doesn’t means less of things Black people generally like if it’s fairly zero sum, and the explicit goal is to make the crowd less Black. The explicit goal is to grow the size of the crowd by targeting an underrepresented demographic. There’s no reason to think the owner wants fewer black people to come. He wants white people to come in addition to the black ones that already do. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Which, of course, is not what you said. It also doesn’t justify your comment that Blacks were over-represented unless you think the Hawks, who play in Atlanta proper, should for some reason draw disproportionately from the outer metro area. > [@treis](#): > > Like I said before, the **metro** area is 55% white, 35% black, and a mix for the last 10% You just don’t know what you’re talking about here. The city of Atlanta has less than 10% of the population of the metro area. The boundary is practically meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/33 "2014-09-08T02:02:12Z")
The Wizards also face the same issues… 650k inside the DC city limits, 5.2 million outside. Why limit your marketing efforts to the 650k? The Hawks always have the option of moving to Cobb County, like the Braves are doing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/34 "2014-09-08T02:47:59Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Actually, in the passage you quoted **Brickbacon** , **treis** specifically mentioned the Metro Atlanta area. You are right. My apologies treis. > [@JohnT](#): > > And the argument that a team should only concern themselves with the 450k market within the city limits while dismissing the 5 million people surrounding the city limits is… odd. That’s not what I said at all. My point, which still stands is that the “metro area” in most places is not going to be equally drawn from in a sport like basketball where you have 41 home games. If you think it’s reasonable to assume someone who lives in Atlanta is just as likely to go to a game as someone in the Brookhaven, please explain why? The same thing applies to DC. Why would I expect someone in Manassas to be just as likely to attend a Wizards games as someone in Georgetown or Chinatown? Maybe that is the case, but you can’t just point at a number as say X group is under-represented. > [@treis](#): > > The explicit goal is to grow the size of the crowd by targeting an underrepresented demographic. Except that is not a complete or reasonable parsing of what he said and clearly implied. > [@treis](#): > > There’s no reason to think the owner wants fewer black people to come. He wants white people to come in addition to the black ones that already do. And yet, he said: [QUOTE=Levenson] I have been open with our executive team about these concerns. I have told them I want some white cheerleaders and while i don’t care what the color of the artist is, i want the music to be music familiar to a 40 year old white guy if that’s our season tixs demo. **i have also balked when every fan picked out of crowd to shoot shots in some time out contest is black. I have even bitched that the kiss cam is too black.** **Gradually things have changed. My unscientific guess is that our crowd is 40 pct black now, still four to five times all other teams. And my further guess is that 40 pct still feels like 70 pet to some whites at our games. Our bars are still overwhelmingly black.** This is obviously a sensitive topic, but sadly i think it is far and way the number one reason our season ticket base is so low. [/QUOTE] Now let’s look at what these changes supposedly did. Here is the average attendance from 2006-2013 (email was written in 2012). 2006: 15,071 2007: 15,594 2008: 16,280 2009: 16,748 2010: 16,545 2011: 15,648 2012: 15,199 2013: 15,125 His efforts don’t seem to have growth the pie any, so this idea that he was only wanting to attract Whites, but not at the expense of Black fans doesn’t seem to have been effective. From the time he says they began looking at the issue (presumably when the crowd was 70% Black) to when he wrote the email (when it was 40% Black), the average attendance increased by 124 people. That’s less than a 1% increase, which clearly means the loss of Black people coincided with the gain in Whites. More importantly, if his goal was as innocuous as you suggest, why did he say: [QUOTE=Levenson] “If you’re angry about what I wrote, you should be,” he said. “I’m angry at myself, too. It was inflammatory nonsense. We all may have subtle biases and preconceptions when it comes to race, but my role as a leader is to challenge them, not to validate or accommodate those who might hold them.” [/QUOTE] Now I don’t think his biases make him particularly abhorrent or even that unusual, but it is clearly racist and he even admitted as much. > [@treis](#): > > You just don’t know what you’re talking about here. The city of Atlanta has less than 10% of the population of the metro area. The boundary is practically meaningless. Yes, and please explain why a team should draw equally from the “metro” area, which is also a meaningless boundary. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/35 "2014-09-08T02:57:49Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The Wizards also face the same issues… 650k inside the DC city limits, 5.2 million outside. Why limit your marketing efforts to the 650k? I am not suggesting limiting marketing, but rather not assuming your marketing is equally compelling to people who live 30 miles from the stadium as those who live next door. The DC Metro area supposedly includes places in Loudoun and Frederick counties. Using those numbers to imply a given group is under or over represented is foolish. Do you realize how long it takes to get from Ashburn to Chinatown DC on a weeknight? If you want to use a mileage radius around the stadium, or a travel time standard, then the demographics might be more compelling, but just deciding the “metro” area is relevant without evidence is not compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/36 "2014-09-08T04:18:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It’s your argument. It’s Levenson’s argument. Take it up with him. > [@JKilez](#): > > And, as I noted, he would be just as happy if the people filling those seats were black. Your argument would be stronger if he had actually said this, but he didn’t. He did say he wants white people because they have more money and spend more. And he said they aren’t coming because there are too many black people. If he had couched this argument purely in economic terms you might have a case. He did not. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/37 "2014-09-08T04:35:37Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Most of them were lying. Do you think Levenson was lying? It’s irrelevant. One of the big wins of the civil rights era was the decision that even if the sentiment were genuine, it’s still not a legitimate excuse to practice racial discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/38 "2014-09-08T11:19:34Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > It’s highly objectionable. It’s arguably grounds for him to lose the team. > > I don’t think it’s racist, and I think calling it racist cheapens the word. On what grounds then? The appearance of racism? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/39 "2014-09-08T11:22:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about. There’s no racism on the part of black fans here. Black fans are going to Hawks games, and Levenson theorizes that white fans don’t want to come because there are too many black people. The black fans who go to basketball games as opposed to hockey games. The ones who prefer the “blackness” of the former over the “whiteness” of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779/40 "2014-09-08T11:33:29Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > The black fans who go to basketball games as opposed to hockey games. The ones who prefer the “blackness” of the former over the “whiteness” of the latter. Oh, so you are adding a wholly new, and somewhat irrelevant layer of racism to the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-hawks-owner-to-sell-team-after-revelations-of-racist-emails-from-2012/697779.md?page=3)