# NBA Playoffs are here! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259 "2011-04-21T18:05:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Hennessy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hennessy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hennessy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/302 "2011-06-14T17:50:29Z")
> [@Wash](#): > > Sure there is - we’re not arguing who is more talented, this is about greatness, which doesn’t come from talent alone - Hennessy was arguing that Lebron is the greatest player in the NBA, but a truly great player lifts his team up in times of adversity, leads his team, makes his team better. Lebron did none of these, while Wade at least tried (and has proven in the past that he is able to, practically single-handedly winning the championship in 2006). Wasn’t going to respond due to the childish first reply you made but this one is a little better… I was hardly arguing he was the greatest, I was stating he was the greatest because it is true based on his numbers… You talk about adversity but do you know any other player that has faced this type of adversity? It’s definitely not your average amount… Jordan had support and love (lovers?) from all walks of life, LeBron has much the opposite. These NBA players may be rich but they are not robots. You said Wade tried but the footage tells me otherwise, LeBron was trying hard as hell to get Wade going but he refused or whatever the hell was wrong with him… I don’t know about that single-handedly championship winning either, Shaq averaged 60% field goals from that year, his highest ever… He wasn’t as explosive compared to his early years but he was still championship material and was vital to winning the trophy… Wade shouldn’t be getting a pass since the Heat is his team and whatnot… Game 6 Wade: 6-16, 17 points. Lebron: 9-15, 21 points Marley23, did you catch what I had quoted? That sure seems a little or a lot more out of hand than what I said… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/303 "2011-06-14T17:55:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And yes, he’s the best player on that team. He’s better than Wade at almost every component of the game. Scoring, rebounding, passing, name it. If you want to argue that he lacks greatness, however you define that, go for it - he’s proved he doesn’t have the determination that Wade, or a bunch of other guys, some of whom have significantly less ability than LeBron himself does. Y’know, that brings up an interesting hypothetical: what if, year after year after year, Guy A always outshines Guy B at scoring and rebounding and the rest – except in the playoffs, when Guy B always outshines Guy A? Who’s the better player on that team? ---
**Author:** ![Hennessy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hennessy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hennessy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/304 "2011-06-14T18:06:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Y’know, that brings up an interesting hypothetical: what if, year after year after year, Guy A always outshines Guy B at scoring and rebounding and the rest – except in the playoffs, when Guy B always outshines Guy A? Who’s the better player on that team? Definitely Guy A… Besides, is it really true that Wade out shined LeBron these playoffs… Was Wade even on the court during the Eastern Conference Finals, I thought he had to attend a funeral or something. The media said he was resting for the Finals, feel sorry for anyone who would believe that… Anyway, this is their first year together, understand they will get a ring… ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/305 "2011-06-14T18:19:34Z")
> [@Hennessy](#): > > Wade shouldn’t be getting a pass since the Heat is his team and whatnot… > > Game 6 > > Wade: 6-16, 17 points. > > Lebron: 9-15, 21 points Please. LeBron was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter of any game in the Finals. Are you really going to hang your hat on game 6, when the two drives inside he bothered to attempt resulted in a charge and a turnover, when he hung out on the perimeter not setting picks, not grabbing rebounds, not diving for loose balls? He just _stood_ there. If I was his teammate, I would have quit too. His talent and potential can’t cover for him anymore. If he won’t leverage his abilities to the fullest, he can’t be considered the best player anymore. He’s a lazy superstar. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/306 "2011-06-14T18:25:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Y’know, that brings up an interesting hypothetical: what if, year after year after year, Guy A always outshines Guy B at scoring and rebounding and the rest – except in the playoffs, when Guy B always outshines Guy A? Who’s the better player on that team? I’d say Guy A is the better player and B is the better performer in the playoffs. Put it another way: we’ve done Derek Jeter vs. Alex Rodriguez, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/307 "2011-06-14T18:27:45Z")
> [@Hennessy](#): > > Marley23, did you catch what I had quoted? That sure seems a little or a lot more out of hand than what I said… I took it to be a general comment, not one about you specifically. But for the record, **Mince** , be careful with comments like that. If you make any more off-color posts like that, make sure they can’t possibly be interpreted as being about another poster. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/308 "2011-06-14T18:28:12Z")
Hennessy, you couldn’t be more wrong about Lebron and basketball in your whole post. I have nothing against you personally, but it irks me to see so many people still defending Lebron after all the crap that’s happened. I spent a good part of yesterday taking in all the schadenfreude from the talk radios and bloggers and sportscasters. It was so delicious to watch a lot of them realize just how bad of a person Lebron is after endlessly anointing him and playing into his game of self-adulation for the past year, if not longer. > [@Hennessy](#): > > Y’all wanna talk basketball? Obviously not… > > I can’t believe all this hate for LeBron James. Lets put some facts together and some of my opinions… > > LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now and has been since he arrived… Lebron’s got a lot of natural talent, that fact is undisputed. But best since he’s arrived? What do you base that on? The facts are that in most of those years, he didn’t score as much as Kobe, dish out as much assists as Kidd, have a better shot percentage than Ray Allen, win as much as Duncan, or have as many rebounds as Howard. Sure, he has personal stats that, on average, is greater than the averages of all of those players, but you’re talking about the best, not the best average. Was he better than Tim Duncan in his rookie year? Better than MVP Steve Nash in his first 2 years? Better than Wade in 2006? Or better than Duncan again when the Spurs swept him? Better than Kobe when he won the scoring title with 35ppg? What are you basing this “best” judgement on? > [@Hennessy](#): > > Where was Dwayne Wade during the whole playoffs? He had some big games but how often? Talk about inconsistency, LeBron received all the attention and frankly that’s not even fair to Dwayne Wade. Why did Dwayne Wade always look like he didn’t give a shit? If it’s his team then we should have seen that from him… Wade showed up. He was scoring more than Lebron during the Finals. Wade’s 26.5ppg in the Finals actually went up from his regular season’s while Lebron’s went down like 9 points. That’s a choker, that’s a guy who isn’t a leader and couldn’t handle the spotlight. Wade was doing all he can but he couldn’t do it alone. And even though I don’t have the stats in front of me, I would bet that Wade scored more when it mattered too, in the 4th quarter, than Lebron in all 6 games. We certainly know Dirk did. Wade was slashing to the hoop and trying to get fouls while Lebron, on consecutive possessions, didn’t even look at the basket as he passed the ball away! The only inconsistency here is between Lebron’s play in the last few rounds vs. the Finals. Why wasn’t he doing the same thing? It’s not like he was trying and got shut down by the Mavs’ defense. He _ **didn’t even try!** _ > [@Hennessy](#): > > After hearing LeBron’s post game interview it became obvious that the players do listen to the media and fans, it is hard not to… So what are the fans and media saying? LeBron is a choker, LeBron is the root of all evil, LeBron, LeBron, LeBron… How about Dwayne Wade? This is D Wades team, yada yada yada… Talk about adversity, huh? Not just a few fans are saying this stuff either, damn near all the fans of the NBA are saying this shit. In LeBron and Wade’s eyes, they probably see it as their whole country saying this shit. So for LeBron, his whole country is against him…? Ouch… How could anyone perform well when their whole country is against them. Are we supposed to feel sorry for him? Maybe he did choke, maybe it was because everyone’s against him, but so fucking what? You make it seem like an acceptable excuse, that because people were against him, Lebron couldn’t deliver and that’s why it happened and that’s why we should go easy on him. If that’s your assessment, then tough shit Lebron, he brought this on himself. Who dances and preens in front of a crowd 11 months before the finals and crows about winning “not one, not two, not three, not four…” championships? Who acts like they’ve already won a ring before they’ve even played one game together? As far as I’m concerned, if your assessment of the situation is correct and Lebron did choke due to everyone being against him, then he’s not only a choker but a whiny little kid. And it would have been all his own fault > [@Hennessy](#): > > LeBron has been dealing with shit since he arrived… People expecting him to be Jordan and always saying he doesn’t compare, where has he stated he is or will be better than Jordan? People are upset because he has “Chosen 1” tattooed on his back, what the hell is wrong with a little personal arrogance? Maybe he tattooed it on his back to push himself harder and meet that expectation. I highly doubt he said to himself, let me tattoo this on my back to make the world hate me… This was hardly even a problem before he left Cleveland… Me personally, I wouldn’t have left after being there so long, or would I, would you? How do you know you wouldn’t leave? The ironic thing is, he probably tatooed it on himself expecting everyone to just go along with it. From what people are saying, Lebron’s a different animal than guys like Jordan or Kobe. Lebron wants to be liked. He wants to win too, but he wants to be liked more. Jordan or Kobe couldn’t give a damn about being liked. But they were sure to not act like champions before they’ve ever won anything. I have no problems with personal arrogance. If it’s deserved. But with the stupid tatoo, calling himself The King, King James, etc. and guys like you telling everyone he’s the best without him ever winning, that rubs people the wrong way. Hell, I’m a Lakers fan and I wouldn’t care if Kobe started comparing himself to Jordan or saying he’s the best ever, but that’s because at least a small case can be made for that. 5 championships with him being either the leader or co-leader of a team gives him that right. Lebron’s arrogance is just empty posturing, and even moreso now that he’s been to the Finals with his best team and basically stunk up the place. > [@Hennessy](#): > > So he joined Miami with another superstar and people cry about that too… Y’all here to watch good basketball or get your panties in a bunch? How can y’all not enjoy a super team? A super team is like the Harlem Globetrotters of the NBA (very entertaining) yet no one can enjoy the Miami Heat because it’s personal now (funny)… Some of it’s good. But concentrating good players on one team like this robs other franchises of watchable games. I know that as a Lakers fan, I shouldn’t be talking down about good teams, but it makes those middle of the year slogs through Minnesota or Indiana or Sacramento or New York just feel forever. Those games sucked. I would love it if some of those teams had decent stars, or even a superstar like Lebron or Wade make things interesting once in a while. Cause even if the likes of Indiana or Milwaukee makes the playoffs, they’re still boring. But when you get a guy who’s great like a Derrick Rose, even if he’s on an #8 seed facing the #1 seed Celtics, it can be exciting. > [@Hennessy](#): > > LeBron choking in the 4th quarter? What were his stats in the 4th quarter of Game 6 before they gave up? BTW, LeBron gave up before his beautiful quick release 3 pt shot… He may have choked before but not in Game 6, I can’t find quarterly stats but I remember him making most of his shots in the 4th quarter, if my memory is correct, he was 3-4 before he gave up (they gave up early). I would say he didn’t try before I’d say he was choking… I believe Lebron scored like 3 or 5 points in the 4th with an assist and/or a rebound or two plus a turnover. Before that, he would have had then 16-18 points, about 5 assists, 2 or 3 rebounds, and 5 turnovers. I remember seeing the quarterly stats plastered on TV by analysts to show how Lebron gave up. Face it, he choked the series and in game 6. At least he got a triple-double in one of the previous games. 4 rebounds and 6 assists is less than his season average and way less than his average from the other series. And here’s another stat I remember: in the 4th quarters of the series he was 12-20 from the freethrow line and 1-4 in the entire game 6. This coming from a 75% career freethrow shooter. He choked, he couldn’t handle the pressure, its as simple as that > [@Hennessy](#): > > Dwayne Wade always had something bothering him, he didn’t give a fuck this whole series and last (possibly the whole playoffs, didn’t watch). Keep that shit off the court as it affects your game. Who cares about his flopping, where the hell was he? Series stats: James: 17.8ppg - 7.1rpg - 5.1apg Wade: 26.5ppg - 7rpg - 6.8apg However, if you compare the season stats, you’d get: James: 27.7ppg - 7.6rpg - 7.3apg Wade: 25.5apg - 6.4rpg - 4.6apg In every category, Lebron’s stats went down from his season’s average and in every category, Wade’s went up. Wade carried that team. Lebron disappeared > [@Hennessy](#): > > The immature hating has got to stop, hating is for bitches and this is supposed to be a mans sport… I couldn’t agree more with what LeBron said to the haters after the game because he was right 100%. Men aren’t supposed to get wrapped up in this shit. This is a NBA thread and I would expect basketball fans to show up (did y’all see Kidd block Charmer’s shot in the 4th?)… I guess hate sells so I really don’t expect things to change. The hating was invited by Lebron with his arrogance and childishness. It is completely deserved. It’s not a diss on men to say that immature prima-donnas bother us. Rather, there would be something wrong with us if we DIDN’T feel offended by the assholery of James. And now he’s a two time Finals loser. That’s why we feel like celebrating ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/309 "2011-06-14T18:31:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Y’know, that brings up an interesting hypothetical: what if, year after year after year, Guy A always outshines Guy B at scoring and rebounding and the rest – except in the playoffs, when Guy B always outshines Guy A? Who’s the better player on that team? Guy A is better. However, I would rather have Guy B on my team than Guy A ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/310 "2011-06-14T18:37:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wade showed up. He was scoring more than Lebron during the Finals. Wade’s 26.5ppg in the Finals actually went up from his regular season’s while Lebron’s went down like 9 points. That’s a choker, that’s a guy who isn’t a leader and couldn’t handle the spotlight. Wade was doing all he can but he couldn’t do it alone. And even though I don’t have the stats in front of me, I would bet that Wade scored more when it mattered too, in the 4th quarter, than Lebron in all 6 games. We certainly know Dirk did. Wade was slashing to the hoop and trying to get fouls while Lebron, on consecutive possessions, didn’t even look at the basket as he passed the ball away! Seriously. The only argument commentators could make in support of LeBron was that he was playing “efficiently.” The Heat didn’t need “efficient” play, they needed dominant play. Let Bosh play efficiently, LeBron is supposed to be the best player in the NBA. His triple-double in game 5 may have been the most unimpressive triple double ever. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/311 "2011-06-14T18:41:31Z")
> [@Hennessy](#): > > I was hardly arguing he was the greatest, I was stating he was the greatest because it is true based on his numbers… You talk about adversity but do you know any other player that has faced this type of adversity? …the incredible adversity of having people _root against him?_ Yes, I can probably name a few players who managed to grit their teeth and overcome that sort of adversity. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/312 "2011-06-14T18:51:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’d say Guy A is the better player and B is the better performer in the playoffs. Put it another way: we’ve done Derek Jeter vs. Alex Rodriguez, right? Nope. Insufficient data to make the determination. _Why_ does Guy A outperform Guy B (statistically speaking) during the regular season? Is it because Guy A is genuinely a “better player” than Guy B? Or is it because - just to pick a hypothetical possibility with no relationship to any actual real-life situation - Guy B was content to let Guy A pile up numbers during a regular season that (unlike in baseball) is all but meaningless, in order to soothe Guy A’s rather bizarre ego, and because (again, unlike in baseball), statistics in basketball are to some extent zero sum - there are only so many shots to go around, so if Guy A is taking them, Guy B is not, whereas Jeter and A-Rod get roughly the same opportunities - giving up the alpha dog position during the regular season to Guy A means Guy B gets fewer opportunities? To most people, things like “leadership” and “consistency” and “getting the most out of your talent” are _part_ of what makes someone a good basketball player. LeBron James is _more talented_ than Dywane Wade; I won’t argue with that. In fact, LeBron is probably more talented than anyone playing the game right now. But _most talented_ does not equal _best player._ That designation incorporates things like being able to keep going when fatigued, being able to maintain concentration under duress, being able to lead (this DOES matter in basketball, in a way that it does not matter in baseball), being able to make the most of what your talent allows. Add those things in, and to my mind Dwayne Wade is currently a better basketball player than LeBron James. Along with a select few others. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/313 "2011-06-14T19:24:01Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Nope. Insufficient data to make the determination. _Why_ does Guy A outperform Guy B (statistically speaking) during the regular season? We also didn’t get into how much each guy is better in which situation. The reasons for the differences aren’t that interesting to me, and I tend to be suspicious of fans’ explanations of why one guy is better in one situation and another guy is better in a different situation. At least, that’s how I feel when the reasons are based on things like guts and clutchness rather than data. (And yes, baseball is very different from basketball. I was just illustrating the fact that a reputation for coming through or failing in the playoffs does not necessarily make one player better than another.) What I would say in response to this situation is that LeBron is the better player but Dallas frustrated him and he didn’t raise his game when Miami needed it. He’s not the guy to lead the team. Wade is a great player on his own, and is the better leader and responds better to a challenge. If you asked LeBron to do the things Wade does on the court, he can do them. If you ask him to take charge and rally the team, history says you have a problem. If you asked Wade to rebound and distribute the ball like LeBron, it’s not going to happen. He might be able to inspire the team to a greater degree, but unless someone else is making up for those deficits, you may have a problem. Wade wasn’t winning any titles with the team they had the last couple of seasons no matter how great a leader and scorer he is, and if things hadn’t worked out with Bosh and LeBron, Miami would have lost him. They’re both among the best players in the league, but I’m skeptical of ranking them this way. If Wade had a handful of championships on his own and LeBron had nothing, you might be able to persuade me that Wade’s grit was sufficient to overcome the fact that he’s somewhat less gifted and versatile. In reality his one championship came five seasons ago. It happened and he deserves credit for it, but I don’t think that title and LeBron’s playoff fades are enough to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/314 "2011-06-15T21:26:48Z")
Apparently some Heat players went and partied with the Mavs at the afterparty that night. I don’t think Lebron was there, but it would totally not surprise me if he were ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/315 "2011-06-15T21:50:57Z")
I have decided to take my dance skills to the Mav’s afterparty… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259/316 "2011-06-15T23:19:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Lebron’s got a lot of natural talent, that fact is undisputed. But best since he’s arrived? What do you base that on? The facts are that in most of those years, he didn’t score as much as Kobe, dish out as much assists as Kidd, have a better shot percentage than Ray Allen, win as much as Duncan, or have as many rebounds as Howard. Sure, he has personal stats that, on average, is greater than the averages of all of those players, but you’re talking about the best, not the best average. Was he better than Tim Duncan in his rookie year? Better than MVP Steve Nash in his first 2 years? Better than Wade in 2006? Or better than Duncan again when the Spurs swept him? Better than Kobe when he won the scoring title with 35ppg? What are you basing this “best” judgement on? The best tag gets hung on LBJ for his overall game, which includes defense. He may very well be the GOAT in terms of defensive versatility, being able to guard any position on the floor effectively; I’m not sure who else there is - Rodman? Artest? Of those players that you listed - Kobe, Kidd, Allen, Duncan, Howard, Nash, Wade - none of them would be able to guard Derrick Rose AND Carlos Boozer in the same game as effectively as James could. This is, unfortunately for James, often overlooked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nba-playoffs-are-here/579259.md?page=15)