# NC: Cops pepper spray black foster son of white family **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795 "2014-10-08T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/441 "2014-10-11T21:54:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I understand Billfish’s point, there are two steps: > > 1. Prior to understanding that it’s a cop, lethal force is acceptable. > 2. Once you understand that it’s a cop, only compliance is acceptable. > > Is this correct, **billfish**? > . Damn computer ate my long reply. Not typing that out again. But thats a good start. My post was intended to counter You with the Face’s “gotcha”, which appears to me to go along the following lines. You folks like seeing a black guy get pepper sprayed. But you folks also believe in stand your ground/castle doctrine. Cops are your heros. You think black people are bad. But you fools! Don’t you see that some bad black guy could shoot your hero cops using your own rules! How do you like them apples! Which IMO sucks on a couple of levels. First the argument is kinda built on racism as a given to work. And it kinda sucks as it fails to see the issue in terms of variable possible outcomes and multiple components that are not totally intertwined. So, my two examples were to counter that “gotcha”. And yes, I believe as a general principle you do what the cop says, legal or no. Thats not the place to have that fight and I think such a position can be defended as correct as a matter of principle AND as a matter of pragmatism. And before someone gets butt hurt due to poor reading skills, “can be defended” does not mean “obviously right”. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/442 "2014-10-11T21:56:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You With the Face: You have a right to resist > Morgenstern: And then … > > The logical implication in that sequence is “Yes, you have a right to resist, and then …” > > I’m pointing out that these propositions cannot follow in sequence. > > If you meant to say, “No, you do not have a right to resist. If you resist, the cop can …” then you should have said so. Actually what I said was… > [@Morgenstern](#): > > And then, if you resist, the cops are fully within their right using the amount of force necessary to force your compliance. Pepper spray is just one option as we saw in this case. > > … Let’s not let the whole sentence spoil your logic though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/443 "2014-10-11T22:24:18Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Actually what I said was… > > Let’s not let the whole sentence spoil your logic though. The rest of the sentence doesn’t change the meaning of what I said. That’s why I left it out. What exactly do you think the difference is? My point is that if the cops have a right to force your compliance, then you do not have the right to resist. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/444 "2014-10-11T22:36:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > My point is that if the cops have a right to force your compliance, then you do not have the right to resist. You do in a way. If they give you an illegal command, you can resist. Then you may get forced to comply. And if later, that resistance you showed doesn’t get you in any legal trouble because the command was illegal, then you did have the RIGHT to resist. You just didn’t like some of the consequences of resisting. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/445 "2014-10-11T22:46:28Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The rest of the sentence doesn’t change the meaning of what I said. That’s why I left it out. > > … I think it clearly does. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/446 "2014-10-11T22:51:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I think it clearly does. “Clearly”? Clearly, it wasn’t clear or else we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Which part of my analysis of your exchange with You With the Face is altered by the rest of the sentence? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/447 "2014-10-12T00:02:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I read that comment and that thought you referring to **Shodan**. > > Next time when you want to call someone an angry monkey, either make it clearer who you’re referring to or just use the word nigger. Thanks! I am sorry if you took it that way. I certainly did not intend it that way. And I am not one of those “see what I can get away with” or “how close to line can I dance” sorta posters. I made my post about the two different scenarios. And I don’t think there was anything particularly complicated about it. After posting that I was starting to work up in my mind an analogy about how this situation could be viewed as a car with various parts that do various things and how you need to understand how they interact and why they are the way they are and what exactly you want to accomplish before you try to tune one. You can’t start just getting angry/frustrated and twiddling with random stuff and make any progress. While I was doing that you came along, read my two scenario post and had totally flubbed your analysis before you had even finished my first important sentence. Which is probably why you deleted that post pretty quick. So, now I am thinking, this isn’t just an angry person who IMO doesn’t get how this whole car thing works, they don’t even have a clue. And monkey working on a car popped into my mind. My bad there. But not remotely intentional or trying to get someones goat or be sly. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/448 "2014-10-12T00:22:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’ll tell you what I’m saying. I think it’s fucking ridiculous that you try and compare some guy working security for a mall with real police officers who are granted the powers of the government to serve as their agents. > > If you still don’t grasp my point, I can use braille if that would help. > > I’ll tell you what. You answer my questions, and I’ll answer this one. Since she answered you, did I miss where you answered her? And to **billfish** ; seriously? Yeah, that sounds totally believable. Unreal. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/449 "2014-10-12T00:31:23Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > My bad there. But not remotely intentional or trying to get someones goat or be sly. I accept your apology. It is funny though that in calling me a “angry monkey” because you thought I was posting impulsively, you yourself posted impulsively. Not just because you didn’t think through the racial implications of your word choice, but because you posted before I went back and did a better job responding to you. Your comment was a real head scratcher because I actually _thanked_ you for looking at things from Currie’s perspective. But I do appreciate you at least owning up to the ugliness. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/450 "2014-10-12T00:33:03Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > And to **billfish** ; seriously? Yeah, that sounds totally believable. Unreal. Am I being gullible again? Like I was in that **Incubus** thread? I won’t be mad if you say yes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/451 "2014-10-12T00:43:42Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Suppose Mr. Currie, knowing full well they were police, opened fire on them after they announced themselves and entered? Could he be arrested and charged for that? Or if, instead of a gun, he started punching a police officer? Is that OK to you? I already posted a link about a guy who was acquitted for shooting several cops conducting a knockless raid in his home. So we know what precedence has determined. Whether he “knew full well they were police” would probably be up to the jury to decide. If he claimed he didn’t know, I would not care enough to doubt him and I would be okay with him getting off. If he claimed he did know they were police and killed them anyway, then I wouldn’t be okay. But you know, there’s a huge middle between shooting at cops and not making it easy for cops to violate you in your own home because…AGENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT! I’m somewhere in that middle. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/452 "2014-10-12T00:55:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I accept your apology. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/453 "2014-10-12T01:01:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Am I being gullible again? Like I was in that **Incubus** thread? I won’t be mad if you say yes. 🙂 There are certain posters that are ubiquitous in certain threads. People that always show up to debate guns, abortion, religion, whatever. If you are ever in those even the teensiest bit, you begin to learn stuff about folks. And since you and **monstro** forever fight the good fight in these threads revolving around racism, I find it almost impossible to believe that someone wouldn’t (1) know your backstory and realize you are black, (2) be super cognitive of NOT saying anything that even had a tinge of bigotry to it, and then (3) come up with such a lame ass excuse. “A monkey working on a car”?? I get that I’m not ancient or anything, nor have I lived everywhere, but even down here in the south during my 46 years, I’ve never heard that expression. So, yeah, I think you might be gullible here. I’m sorry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/454 "2014-10-12T01:06:25Z")
When my various DIY handiwork projects turn out rather poorly “looks like a drunk monkey did it” is one of my typical descriptors for the finished product. Take that for what you will. And thats probably all the bait I’m gonna take on this. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/455 "2014-10-12T01:07:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Clearly”? Clearly, it wasn’t clear or else we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Which part of my analysis of your exchange with You With the Face is altered by the rest of the sentence? You’re being deliberately obtuse. We’re talking about you taking 3 words, out of context, from a sentence and claiming they have a special meaning exclusive of what the sentence states. You need to read the entire sentence to get the full thought. It’s amazing you need to be told this. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/456 "2014-10-12T01:09:11Z")
You don’t have to apologize, **faithfool**. If costs me little to give powerless jackasses on a message board the benefit of the doubt. Especially since I count on folks like you and others to keep it 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/457 "2014-10-12T01:15:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **LHoD** isn’t always an contemptible buffoon (you generally are). So on some level, he (and **Colibri** and **Marley23** ) recognize that what they are posting is worthy of ridicule. We know that from the instant accusations of trolling and foolishness that ensued. They got that uncomfortable sinking feeling that you get when someone steps into a Pit thread and spoils the self-righteous fun. So they attempted a counter-attack with the unanswerable accusations of trolling and racism. The problem is, I don’t care. You know how I said that you have to build total fantasy versions of us in order to make yourself feel better? This is exhibit A. In order for your construct to work, you, like an orthodox Marxist, have to believe that your ideological opponents secretly know that you’re right. Problem is, we don’t know that. It’s not because we’re too dense to recognize your rectitude, though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/458 "2014-10-12T01:58:06Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re being deliberately obtuse. No, I am not. I made an observation regarding the implication of your exchange with You With the Face. I abbreviated your comments merely for the sake of convenience, without changing the meaning of your words at all. [/quote] We’re talking about you taking 3 words, out of context, from a sentence and claiming they have a special meaning exclusive of what the sentence states. You need to read the entire sentence to get the full thought. It’s amazing you need to be told this. [/QUOTE] You’re simply wrong about that. I can put all those words back in the sentence and it has exactly the same meaning. Observe: > [@](#): > > You With the Face: “Yes, I think we have the right to resist cops when they are acting unlawfully and abusively.” > > Morgenstern: “And then, if you resist, the cops are fully within their right using the amount of force necessary to force your compliance. Pepper spray is just one option as we saw in this case.” > > The logical implication in that sequence is "Yes, you have a right to resist. And then, if you resist, the cops are fully within their right using the amount of force necessary to force your compliance. Pepper spray is just one option as we saw in this case. " > > I’m pointing out that these propositions cannot follow in sequence. > > If you meant to say, "No, you do not have a right to resist. If you resist, the cops are fully within their right using the amount of force necessary to force your compliance. Pepper spray is just one option as we saw in this case. " then you should have said so. I believe that this _clearly_ (to use your word) means exactly the same thing as I said before. However, if you honestly believe that I removed any relevant context, then I have resupplied all possible context and that objection is obviated. Now I invite you respond to the substance of my statement. If you are still confused, then I’ll restate it: 1. If a cop has the right to counter your resistance with force in order to make you comply, then, as an irrefutable matter of logic, _you have no such right to resist_. 2. If you have a right to resist, then a cop does not have an unfettered right to use force to make you comply. Given that, do you or do you not have a right to resist in the matter stated by You With a Face? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/459 "2014-10-12T02:34:16Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > When my various DIY handiwork projects turn out rather poorly “looks like a drunk monkey did it” is one of my typical descriptors for the finished product. > > Take that for what you will. > > And thats probably all the bait I’m gonna take on this. You called her a monkey and I’m the one that’s baiting you? The Dope never ceases to plumb the depths of bullshit, does it? But keep up with the plausible deniability ;), you wear it well. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You don’t have to apologize, **faithfool**. If costs me little to give powerless jackasses on a message board the benefit of the doubt. Especially since I count on folks like you and others to keep it 100%. I just really like you sisters and hate when lying assholes are, well, assholes. The lying part is expected. Anyway, I know you’re good. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/460 "2014-10-12T02:46:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You don’t have to apologize, **faithfool**. If costs me little to give powerless jackasses on a message board the benefit of the doubt. Especially since I count on folks like you and others to keep it 100%. Well, So much for THAT graceful apology acceptance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=24)