# NC: Cops pepper spray black foster son of white family **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795 "2014-10-08T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/661 "2014-10-14T19:42:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Shouting. Mouthing off. That’s all the excuse they need, huh? :dubious: Plus the verbal threats issued against the police, not having an ID, or other proof, that he actually lived there, knocking the handcuffs out of the officer’s hand, and aggravated mopery. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/662 "2014-10-14T19:48:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So yes, it makes perfect sense that we focus on side A’s conduct to the exclusion of side B’s. So are you proposing that when a cop reasonably suspects someone of burglary, and that person is threatening physical violence against the cop, the cop should, in that very instant, be thinking “hmm, let me review each of the steps that led us to be in the current situation… if I think that, retroactively, they were solid, I can threaten to handcuff this guy if he doesn’t stop threatening me, but if they weren’t, then I just need to sit here and take it and assume he won’t be a threat because really this whole situation is our fault”? I’m saying that if you physically threaten and resist a cop who is in the midst of what the cop perceives to be the lawful execution of his duty, you will likely get pepper sprayed. That pepper spraying will be a predictable consequence of the action you took. And that remains true regardless of whether the cops have screwed up a lot or none at all in the overall situation. > [@](#): > > But with Currie, you’re accepting his alleged “mistakes” as irrefutable just because the same cops who maced him are making that claim. That is clearly not what I am doing. I have said repeatedly in this thread that my actual opinion about the “goodness” of what the cops did (using a deliberately vague term) depends on what actually happened between them, which we don’t know, because all we have our conflicting sets of testimonies. If the cops just pepper sprayed him because he was mouthing off, and then made up the “grabbed my arm” bit out of thin air to justify it after the fact, then they are 100% wrong. If Currie was actually trying to harm the cop and got pepper sprayed, then the pepper spray was totally justified. I don’t know what happened. If I failed to prefix some of my posts with “Assuming that what happened was basically X…” then I apologize, but doing so gets repetitive. > [@](#): > > When you come up with analogies, it would help if you make the salient conditions equivalent to Currie’s situation. That defeats the entire point of an analogy. If I came up with an analogy that was identical to Currie’s situation, except he was named Burrie instead of Currie, then nothing would be learned. I’m trying to make a fairly specific point about whether a macro-level police mistake (ie, they shouldn’t have been there in the first place) justifies micro-level actions. To attempt to focus on that point I proposed an analogy with just those characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/663 "2014-10-14T19:54:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This does not contradict anything I’ve said – Currie does not admit to such battery, and being angry or even having “snapped” is not necessarily consistent with such threats and battery. Speaking only for myself… if Currie was angry and yelling and cursing, but NOT acting in a physically threatening or resistant way, then it was wrong to pepper spray him. If he was physically violent it was OK to pepper spray him. If he was angry and yelling, and what he was yelling was credible and specific threats of physical violence, then it’s a borderline case. As to what actually happened, well, that’s why we need lapel cams. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/664 "2014-10-14T19:59:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought you were asking > where “these questions” are > And then quoted the cops asking him who he was and if he lived there, why did his ID not match. > > Which sounds like a pretty close match to “who are you and why are you here?” Please reread post 629. All of the quoted questions happened while all three cops were downstairs. You then responded that “Stancil wasn’t in the room when Currie lost it during questioning.” I pointed out that Currie didn’t, according to anyone involved, lose it during questioning, since the only questioning reported occurred while all three cops were in the room. You suggest that he was questioned about the pictures and lost it then, but this interpretation is unsupported by the police report–you speculate that Stancil asked him about the pictures while he was downstairs, but again, there’s no support for this from the police. > [@](#): > > Which implies either that Currie was asked about the pictures shortly after he was asked why his ID didn’t match, or shortly before he snapped and was sprayed, after Stancil went upstairs. But why does it matter? The point is that **they did not treat him like a helpful witness, but instead entirely like a suspect**. You suggest they maybe asked him a question about the pictures, presumably to suggest that they were treating him like a helpful witness (or maybe you just lost the thread of the conversation, whatever). But that fails doubly, because: 1. You’re speculating on that–the cops don’t report that, and it’s entirely possible Stancil just made some snide comment about his absence from the pictures and didn’t ask a question about it; and 2. The entire reason we’re talking about asking him questions is because the right kind of question can de-escalate. “If you’re adopted, how come they don’t have any pictures of you?” is not the right kind of question. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/665 "2014-10-14T19:59:37Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > and > > “ **the activation of an alarm in conjunction with additional information supporting the possibility of a break-in** is sufficient to support police officers’ determination that an exigency exists. … Because it would be reasonable for an officer in Edmonds’s shoes to believe a burglary was in progress, exigent circumstances existed that justified the warrantless entry.” > > So, you cite to a case that actually held the warrantless entry into a home based on an alarm and a slightly open door was legal for the proposition that the warrantless entry into a home based on a neighbor’s call and an open door was illegal. Um yeah. The presence of an activated alarm and other info supportive of a break-in is exactly the kind of evidence lacking in Currie’s case. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/666 "2014-10-14T20:02:54Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Speaking only for myself… if Currie was angry and yelling and cursing, but NOT acting in a physically threatening or resistant way, then it was wrong to pepper spray him. If he was physically violent it was OK to pepper spray him. If he was angry and yelling, and what he was yelling was credible and specific threats of physical violence, then it’s a borderline case. > > As to what actually happened, well, that’s why we need lapel cams. I pretty much agree with this, with the proviso that cops need to deal with an angry person in a way that lessens anger, and they pretty demonstrably did not do so in this case, even if you accept their word as gospel. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/667 "2014-10-14T20:17:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Um yeah. The presence of an activated alarm and other info supportive of a break-in is exactly the kind of evidence lacking in Currie’s case. You still have a neighbor’s report, an open door, and an individual who could not provide proof that they lived there. The 18yr old could have assisted the officer’s investigation and quickly cleared up any misunderstanding. Or the 18yr old could spend his time threatening and haranguing the officers. His choice. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/668 "2014-10-14T20:19:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Please reread post 629. All of the quoted questions happened while all three cops were downstairs. You then responded that “Stancil wasn’t in the room when Currie lost it during questioning.” I pointed out that Currie didn’t, according to anyone involved, lose it during questioning, since the only questioning reported occurred while all three cops were in the room. Currie is the one who claims to have lost it and gotten pepper sprayed when questioned about there being no pictures of him. Stancil was upstairs when Currie was pepper sprayed. Do the math. > [@](#): > > The point is that **they did not treat him like a helpful witness, but instead entirely like a suspect**. That’s probably because he wasn’t at all helpful - according to accounts, Currie was upset and screaming nearly from the get-go. And he **was** a suspect, and became progressively more an object of suspicion as it became clear that the neighbors didn’t know him, his ID didn’t match, there were no pictures of him, nobody else at home could vouch for him. And he was visibly upset, either because he was an immature product of the foster system, or perhaps because he was caught in the act. > [@](#): > > You suggest they maybe asked him a question about the pictures, presumably to suggest that they were treating him like a helpful witness … No, there was no such suggestion. I have no idea where you got an idea like that - I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the cops were pointing out the fact that there were no pictures of him as evidence that he was lying. > [@](#): > > The entire reason we’re talking about asking him questions is because the right kind of question can de-escalate. “If you’re adopted, how come they don’t have any pictures of you?” is not the right kind of question. They are not trying to de-escalate - they are investigating whether or not there has been a burglary. That’s their primary concern - if this stranger the neighbor reported breaking into a house, who has (apparently) lied about his address and gets peevish when questioned, is a burglar or not. You apparently think the primary concern of the cops ought to be to spare his tender feelings. That’s not the approach - you get control of the scene, and start investigating. And if some childish asshole pitches a tantrum, you cuff him, using the minimal amount of force practicable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/669 "2014-10-14T20:19:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Um yeah. The presence of an activated alarm and other info supportive of a break-in is exactly the kind of evidence lacking in Currie’s case. The report of the neighbor was that “other info”. In the Brown case that you cited, the defendant had argued that the court should disregard the alarm because it wasn’t as reliable as an eyewitness report. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/670 "2014-10-14T20:36:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They are not trying to de-escalate - they are investigating whether or not there has been a burglary. I’m leaning towards LHoD’s view on de-escalation. The kid claims to live there, it’s plausible, so what’s the harm in taking 15 seconds, turn off the Cop Voice, and at least act like you’re concerned about the kid being detained in his own home. You don’t have to let the kid punch you in the nose and run away, but you don’t need to be an asshole either. “I’m sure it’s all a misunderstanding, once we get it cleared up, talk to your parents or foster case worker, we’ll be out of your hair. We do have to check the upstairs, we’re not going to surprise your girlfriend or anything are we?” The skill to bring the emotions down a notch may get a cop out of a situation before it turns violent, safer for everyone. If the kid still wants to scream and threaten violence, you can use force, but why not try to avoid it? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/671 "2014-10-14T20:42:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, both of those are fair points. But as I mentioned, I didn’t quote _Carroll_ so much for its facts as for the impressive list of court decisions that ALSO agreed that a burglary report created exigency for warrantless entry. > > One of those cases answers your objections, I think: _Reardon v. Wroan_, 811 F. 2d 1025 (7th Cir 1987). In this case, three officers received a radio report of a burglary in progress at a fraternity home. They arrived at the home and found no signs of forced entry. The rear door was ajar and the home was dark. They did not knock or announce themselves, but entered with guns drawn and encountered two of the home’s legitimate residents, who they held at gunpoint, handcuffed, and detained. When their ID’s matched the address of the home they were released. This is a much better case, so thanks for introducing it (and here’s the [link](http://openjurist.org/811/f2d/1025#fn3) for the folks following along at home). But again, I’m perplexed by your choice in cases. This one seems to neatly destroy your own argument. After wading through its legalese and excruitiating double negatives, this is what caught my eye: > [@](#): > > On the other hand, defendants [the cops] argue that these facts are not outcome determinative. Instead, they claim the following uncontroverted facts support a finding that there was sufficient information to justify the entry. They point to the fact that there was a radio call indicating a burglary was in progress;3 a lone car was parked near the house in the driveway despite the fact that the university students were on Christmas break; the police were aware that burglaries tend to occur during this time of year; and finally, the rear door to the house was, at the very least, unlocked. **However, this argument ignores the contrary inferences a jury could reasonably draw from the facts disputed by plaintiffs. Therefore, based on the information available to the police, summary judgment for defendants would clearly be improper.** And most importantly, this: > [@](#): > > As stated in our analysis of probable cause, **it is clear that defendants’ conclusions with respect to the existence of probable cause could be found to be objectively unreasonable when the facts are viewed in the light most favorable to the plaintiffs.** Therefore defendants are not entitled to qualified immunity at this stage of the proceedings. > [@Bricker](#): > > In _Reardon_ the police did not announce themselves, either. But the court still found, as a matter of law, that the reported burglary gave them exigency to effect a warrantless entry. But not probable cause! The court’s conclusion couldn’t be clearer. The really interesting thing is they had a little more objective evidence than in Currie’s situation, and yet the court still found it lacking. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/672 "2014-10-14T20:45:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You apparently think the primary concern of the cops ought to be to spare his tender feelings. Actually, I think the primary concern of the cops should be to serve and protect. If there is someone who has not committed a crime, they should do everything they can to keep that person from having force employed against them. In this case, that would have meant helping to de-escalate someone who was understandably very freaked out and upset. You clearly differ in your thinking about what the police should do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/673 "2014-10-14T20:58:49Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The kid claims to live there, it’s plausible… No, it is not plausible. The neighbor doesn’t recognize him, his ID has a different address, and he is getting loud and screamy. > [@](#): > > so what’s the harm in taking 15 seconds, turn off the Cop Voice, and at least act like you’re concerned about the kid being detained in his own home. Because the cops need to establish control of the situation, and find out if there is a situation, before worrying about the kid’s hurt feelings. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/674 "2014-10-14T21:02:05Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m leaning towards LHoD’s view on de-escalation. Thank you for being open-minded enough to consider an alternative view. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/675 "2014-10-14T21:05:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not plausible. Are you sure you meant to type that? It’s CLEARLY plausible that the kid lives there, given the information the cops have. It’s also plausible he does NOT live there and is a burglar. Therefore they need to investigate further to ascertain the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/676 "2014-10-14T21:05:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not plausible. The neighbor doesn’t recognize him, his ID has a different address, and he is getting loud and screamy. “Loud and screamy” has nothing to do with whether it’s plausible. Plenty of teenagers, on finding cops pointing guns at them, would get loud and screamy, even if they don’t look like recent victims of unwarranted shootings by cops. And the kid has explanations for everything, **which turn out to be correct**. If you don’t find them plausible, your understanding of what’s plausible is the problem. > [@](#): > > Because the cops need to establish control of the situation, and find out if there is a situation, before worrying about the kid’s hurt feelings. At the point where you end up having to pepper spray an innocent person, who had done nothing wrong before you pointed a gun at him, you’ve not maintained adequate control of the situation. What you’re missing is that de-escalation is a method of control. It’s a basic principle of teaching: if you have to raise your voice, you’ve lost control. You can tell a good teacher by the way, when he gets quiet, the room gets quiet. When a teacher raises his voice at a student, 99 times out 100 the student raises HIS voice, because shit just escalated. Respect Mah Autoriteh makes for funny cartoons but shitty policing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/677 "2014-10-14T21:06:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > according to accounts, Currie was upset and screaming nearly from the get-go. This is false. Currie said he was angry, his mother said he snapped. Neither said he was screaming “nearly from the get-go” or anything close to that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/678 "2014-10-14T21:07:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it is not plausible. The neighbor doesn’t recognize him, his ID has a different address, and he is getting loud and screamy. Facts are, by definition, plausible. He lived there, so his claim that he lived there was absolutely plausible. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/679 "2014-10-14T21:14:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If there is someone who has not committed a crime, they should do everything they can to keep that person from having force employed against them. Of course, the problem is that they don’t always know whether someone has committed a crime. And clearly “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t apply at all because the cops never prove anything anyhow, that’s up to the courts. I’m not at all saying that the cops here could not have acted better, but I don’t think a reasonable standard is to place the feelings and emotions of suspects above all else at all times. Of course, “suspect” is basically an infinitely gray area. How polite and respectful and de-escalatory should cops be to someone who is running away from a reported bank robbery carrying a big sack with a dollar sign on the side wearing a mask? What about someone who is wearing a red backpack, walking briskly away from the scene, and the robbery report mentioned a red backpack? That guy might be TOTALLY innocent and in the wrong place at the wrong time. How important is de-escalating any tension with that possibly-innocent guy vs. quickly ascertaining the situation? I’m not saying you’re WRONG, I’m saying that you’re making somewhat idealistic claims about what the police priorities should be. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/680 "2014-10-14T22:22:51Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course, the problem is that they don’t always know whether someone has committed a crime. And clearly “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t apply at all because the cops never prove anything anyhow, that’s up to the courts. > > I’m not at all saying that the cops here could not have acted better, but I don’t think a reasonable standard is to place the feelings and emotions of suspects above all else at all times. > … > I’m not saying you’re WRONG, I’m saying that you’re making somewhat idealistic claims about what the police priorities should be. That’s not remotely the standard I’m suggesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=35)