# NC: Cops pepper spray black foster son of white family **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795 "2014-10-08T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/761 "2014-10-15T18:44:39Z")
The report also indicates Stancil was the _last_ to enter the premises, but the _first_ to turn the doorknob. My takeaway is that Stancil tested the door, found it unlocked, and then cracked it. The other cops then moved in while Stancil lingered behind to “clear” the garage. Then he entered. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/762 "2014-10-15T18:48:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is a discrepancy then in the report. Both Lane and Taylor report the door as slightly open. Stancil claims that “Sgt. Taylor and Officer Lane arrived on the scene and **approached the house along with me**.” That’s _before_ he writes that he twisted the door knob. OK. I’m not going to try to resolve factual disputes. I’m here to discuss what legal meaning a particular set of facts has. So what I’m saying is: _IF_ the door was closed when the police arrived, and _IF_ the police saw no other evidence to support a break-in, then their warrantless entry was impermissible under the Fourth Amendment. _IF_ the door was open when they arrived, then their entry was permissible under the Fourth Amendment. I will bow out of a debate that moves into discussing which of those factual predicates actually existed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/763 "2014-10-15T18:51:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > I’m not going to try to resolve factual disputes. I’m here to discuss what legal meaning a particular set of facts has. > > So what I’m saying is: > > _IF_ the door was closed when the police arrived, and _IF_ the police saw no other evidence to support a break-in, then their warrantless entry was impermissible under the Fourth Amendment. > > _IF_ the door was open when they arrived, then their entry was permissible under the Fourth Amendment. > > I will bow out of a debate that moves into discussing which of those factual predicates actually existed. Noted. My bad for implying you didn’t read the report closely enough. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/764 "2014-10-15T18:53:54Z")
**Bricker** , a legal question. Let’s say the door was closed, but unlocked. The cops arrive after the neighbor calls in what she thinks is an intruder. The cops walk around the premises and see no one. The report is that someone who does not live at the address entered. Seems they are duty bound to determine that there is no one in the home who should not be there. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/765 "2014-10-15T18:54:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is a discrepancy then in the report. Both Lane and Taylor report the door as slightly open. Stancil claims that “Sgt. Taylor and Officer Lane arrived on the scene and **approached the house along with me**.” That’s _before_ he writes that he twisted the door knob. It’s not even a discrepancy. Stancil shows up, goes to the garage door the neighbor reports as having been used by the stranger, and waits for backup. After all, this is a possible burglary in progress in a high-crime neighborhood. Lane and Taylor arrive. I believe Taylor is the senior on-scene, and thus more-or-less in charge. He (and Lane) see that the door is open, all three proceed to enter the dwelling - Stancil checking to see if the door was left open, or was broken in, and secures the garage. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/766 "2014-10-15T18:56:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > I’m not going to try to resolve factual disputes. I’m here to discuss what legal meaning a particular set of facts has. > > So what I’m saying is: > > _IF_ the door was closed when the police arrived, and _IF_ the police saw no other evidence to support a break-in, then their warrantless entry was impermissible under the Fourth Amendment. > > _IF_ the door was open when they arrived, then their entry was permissible under the Fourth Amendment. > > I will bow out of a debate that moves into discussing which of those factual predicates actually existed. This is basically what I have been saying the entire time and I concur. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/767 "2014-10-15T18:59:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s not even a discrepancy. Stancil shows up, goes to the garage door the neighbor reports as having been used by the stranger, and waits for backup. After all, this is a possible burglary in progress in a high-crime neighborhood. Lane and Taylor arrive. I believe Taylor is the senior on-scene, and thus more-or-less in charge. He (and Lane) see that the door is open, all three proceed to enter the dwelling - Stancil checking to see if the door was left open, or was broken in, and secures the garage. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s definitely possible. Is checking whether the door was locked but left open SOP? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/768 "2014-10-15T19:19:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s definitely possible. Is checking whether the door was locked but left open SOP? Not locked and left open - if it was locked and broken open, or left open. If it had been broken open, that would be further evidence that a crime was in progress, and I suspect Mr. Currie’s afternoon would have even less pleasant, a lot quicker. “Somebody broke in the garage door and he’s the only one in the house” is rather different than “he walked in the open door”. I have been sort of in the same situaton as Currie in my misspent youth. I locked myself out of my folks’ house when I was home alone, and climbed up to my own bedroom window which I had left open, and a neighbor spotted me and called the cops. But the doors were all locked and closed, and they knocked on the door and I was able to produce ID almost instantly that had that address on it. But it was a low-crime suburb, and I am white as are my parents. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/769 "2014-10-15T19:20:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Seems they are duty bound to determine that there is no one in the home who should not be there. Correct? This is where things like doorbells and radios come in. If the door is closed, it should stay closed. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/770 "2014-10-15T19:26:00Z")
“Obviously, police can’t open a door and then use the door being open as evidence of an on-going burglary.” I’ll read “can’t” as “shouldn’t”. 🙂 We know even halfway decent, competent cops do stuff like this on a routine basis. (Of course, they’d be sputtering about proper protocol and the law were it a case of some (in their mind demented) member of law enforcement to employ these methods as it relates to something to do with _their_ life, or that of a relative or friend or colleague, but … as a general rule, not something about which they need to worry.\*) “you with the face is wrong in her understanding of probable cause predicate: she thinks if the door was open, the officers still would not have been able to legally enter.” To be sure, would depend on other factors, but we know the door being ajar combined with “unaccompanied brown person! … in \*our \*neighborhood! (gasp)” can be twisted into “reasonable suspicion!”. (In my experience, a majority of cops … and prosecutors for that matter … don’t care to recognize any difference whatever between reasonable suspicion and probable cause, or any need to worry about the former before you declare the latter. A good many don’t even care about taking a step further and lying about what did not exist. (If it is not true, make it true; the best lies involve the most shreds of truth. Yes, the door was open (omission: we’re the one who opened it).) - A recent exception being that son of a police officer whose child was the object of awful behavior by a tribe member (who surely wouldn’t have behaved that way had he known the kid was the son of a cop). Where was that? I don’t recall. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/771 "2014-10-15T19:28:12Z")
“Seems they are duty bound to determine that there is no one in the home who should not be there. Correct?” Duty bound (but then most laypeople would be mightily surprised as to the legal obligations of the police). At any rate, no, not simply based the fact that a (gasp) unaccompanied brown person entered a home. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/772 "2014-10-15T19:49:33Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This is where things like doorbells and radios come in. If the door is closed, it should stay closed. There’s no reason to think the door was closed, though, so this is a red herring. We have two people who say it was ajar, and one who says it was unsecured, versus no evidence at all that it was closed. To assume it was closed requires making two unsupported assertions. First, that two officers are lying and one just didn’t mention it, and second, that because they are lying the opposite must be true. Point being, you are welcome to dismiss the police statement entirely on the grounds that you think they’re lying, but that doesn’t prove the truth of anything at all. It simply means then that you have no evidence at all about the state of the door. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/773 "2014-10-15T19:52:21Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > At any rate, no, not simply based the fact that a (gasp) unaccompanied brown person entered a home. Neither “unaccompanied” nor “brown” are relevant. “Unrecognised” is the relevant point. As yet, no-one’s provided any evidence for police wrongdoing, merely speculation that, if things they have no evidence for occurred, then they may have been wrong. There’s less evidence that the police did anything wrong than that Currie was a burglar. Some consistency in standards here would be nice… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/774 "2014-10-15T19:58:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The report also indicates Stancil was the _last_ to enter the premises, but the _first_ to turn the doorknob. > > My takeaway is that Stancil tested the door, found it unlocked, and then cracked it. The other cops then moved in while Stancil lingered behind to “clear” the garage. Then he entered. Or that the other officers had already entered thru the open door and then Stancil checked to see if the door had actually been locked. All of the officers are still available to clarify this issue in court. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/775 "2014-10-15T20:04:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Or that the other officers had already entered thru the open door and then Stancil checked to see if the door had actually been locked. > > All of the officers are still available to clarify this issue in court. It doesn’t matter to YWTF though. According to YWTF, whether the door was open or not is not relevant to the discussion of whether the police should be able to enter - he thinks they should not. Of course this is incorrect but hey, what can you do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/776 "2014-10-15T20:13:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > All of the officers are still available to clarify this issue in court. I don’t think this will ever reach a courtroom. Currie hasn’t been charged with anything, and the family isn’t suing that I know of. Come to think of it, I doubt Deshawn has been adopted, so the (former) foster family may not have standing to sue. Currie could, but he’s the only witness and he does not strike me as the most credible guy on earth. Maybe they will sue and hope for a settlement, but I doubt it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/777 "2014-10-15T20:19:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It doesn’t matter to YWTF though. According to YWTF, whether the door was open or not is not relevant to the discussion of whether the police should be able to enter - he thinks they should not. Of course this is incorrect but hey, what can you do. There has been lots and lots of very interesting speculation in this thread. The facts have been harder to come by. Given what I’ve read about the case so far, I believe that the police had reasonable suspicion and entered thru an open door. The 18yr old acted like an asshole. Maybe he believes all those hollyweird movie scenes where the self-proclaimed badass hero overpowers multiple police officers and escapes? In reality, there is no one to call, “CUT” or to reapply everyone’s makeup. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/778 "2014-10-15T20:19:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Or that the other officers had already entered thru the open door and then Stancil checked to see if the door had actually been locked. The chronology of events matter, believe it or not. Stacil reported he tested the door and THEN he reported the cops entering the door. You can’t just flip events around to make yourself feel better. Stancil was the first officer on the scene. As he approached the door in question he watched as the other cops arrived and came up to join him. His report of the door’s status prior to touching it carries the most weight because the scene had not yet been disturbed. But keep on denying what is damn well obvious. Watching yall tap dance like a bunch of nervous nellies is hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/779 "2014-10-15T20:20:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Or that the other officers had already entered thru the open door and then Stancil checked to see if the door had actually been locked. This is plausible, though it does seem to be an odd thing to check and note in your report. I will say this, it is interesting how the 3 accounts differ in what the officers noticed and remembered about the event. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/780 "2014-10-15T20:21:04Z")
He reported that it was unsecured. That word doesn’t mean “closed”. Your argument has no merit whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=40)