# NC: Cops pepper spray black foster son of white family **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795 "2014-10-08T20:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/861 "2014-10-16T23:08:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > “Your ID doesn’t match and there is no evidence that you really live here” is not the same as “the police noticed that evidence existed that he was not legitimately in the house”, right? > > Exactly what evidence was there that he was not legitimately in the house? > > Regards, > CMC fnord! That is what the police were investigating. The possibility of a burglary. In progress. Did the 18yr old reside at this house or was the 18yr old just stopping by to pick up a few items of value that didn’t belong him? It appears that the 18yr couldn’t have a civilized conversation and make an attempt to clear up any misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/862 "2014-10-16T23:31:49Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > That is what the police were investigating. The possibility of a burglary. In progress. > > Did the 18yr old reside at this house or was the 18yr old just stopping by to pick up a few items of value that didn’t belong him? > > It appears that the 18yr couldn’t have a civilized conversation and make an attempt to clear up any misunderstanding. Indeed, all the police were trying to do was have a civilized conversation with the guy they were pointing guns at and frisking. Why’d he have to get upset? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/863 "2014-10-16T23:46:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed, all the police were trying to do was have a civilized conversation with the guy they were pointing guns at and frisking. Why’d he have to get upset? His choice. Maybe he learned the art of conversation by watching Hollyweird movies? Maybe he just wanted to experience being pepper sprayed? Maybe he’s just an asshole? His choice. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/864 "2014-10-17T00:01:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This statement does not follow from what I wrote, which means you’re too mentally incompetent for me to bother reading the rest of your post. > > Here’s a clue: Ask **Hamlet** how he squares his “bend to their will no matter what because they are the authoritah” philosophy with his belief that cops are too ignorant to recognize a constitutional violation obvious enough for a high schooler to spot. It’s gotta be hard for him to sleep at night, living with the belief that cops have the power to take people’s freedom away and yet are unable to even comprehend the law that allows this freedom to exist. Perhaps this insomnia accounts for the gasket he blew a few pages ago. Your inability to read for comprehension knows no bounds. Rather than caricature what people actually say, why not ask them to clarify if you have trouble understanding? > [@](#): > > In case you are still struggling to follow: I expect cops to understand the law well enough to enforce it without breaking the law themselves. This does not mean I believe in blindly deferring to them; \*\*in fact, I _strenuously_ disagree with blind deference. \*\*Even if cops became legal scholars, submitting to a cop when he’s acting unlawfully goes against my values. If anyone has preached submission at any cost–even if means allowing a certifiable moron to take his rights away–it would be **Hamlet** and other pansy ass chickenshits in this thread. (my bold) That’s actually how I characterized your position. The part that is in conflict is you simultaneously object to deference, and expect police to be experts. If they are experts, wouldn’t a certain about of deference be appropriate? Blind deference, no, but moreso than the layman. > [@Fallen](#): > > I believe that is the crux of the issue and the point at which people are talking past each other. You say “reasonable” suspicion, but the case law has started to catch up with reality, e.g., Crosby v. State, 970 A.2d 894, 408 Md. 490 (2009). This is a non sequitur. This case is about reasonable suspicion during a purported Terry search - not exigency. Perhaps if you’d explain your reasoning for referencing this case it would make sense. Try to do it without parentheticals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/865 "2014-10-17T00:10:44Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > His choice. Absolutely his choice to be upset when people burst into his house with guns drawn and yell at him and frisk him. I know under such circumstances I think, “I say, old chap, shall I be calm here, or shall I freak the fuck out?” and, after stroking my goatee thoughtfully, usually go for freak the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/866 "2014-10-17T00:30:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Your inability to read for comprehension knows no bounds. Rather than caricature what people actually say, why not ask them to clarify if you have trouble understanding? He/she/it doesn’t want, and likely can’t, understand. Here, pages later, he/she/it is still more interested in creating rabid strawmen, flinging insults and getting digs at me than in any meaningful attempt at comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/867 "2014-10-17T00:32:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s gotta be hard for him to sleep at night, You’re such a fucking coward. If you’re going to continue to create strawmen, lie, and fling insults over substance, at least do it addressed to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/868 "2014-10-17T00:34:50Z")
Did you catch what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/869 "2014-10-17T01:13:09Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Did you catch what I did there? Post drunk? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/870 "2014-10-17T01:16:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Absolutely his choice to be upset when people burst into his house with guns drawn and yell at him and frisk him. I know under such circumstances I think, “I say, old chap, shall I be calm here, or shall I freak the fuck out?” and, after stroking my goatee thoughtfully, usually go for freak the fuck out. I assume you also like your life to be a bit on the spicy side. Spicy as capsicum. 😃 I can produce an ID with my current address on it. I can remain calm in a crisis. I can make the effort to clear up misunderstandings. I also know when it’s not in my best interest to keep mouthing off when I’m out-manned or out-gunned. That’s what lawyers are for. It appears that some 18yr olds are more gullible or slow-learners than other 18yr olds. Maybe this kid learned something from his personal choices. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/871 "2014-10-17T01:17:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I can produce an ID with my current address on it. I can remain calm in a crisis. I can make the effort to clear up misunderstandings. Bravo! Your trophy awaits. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/872 "2014-10-17T01:23:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Bravo! Your trophy awaits. Are you handing out “participation” trophies? If everyone gets one, then I don’t want one. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/873 "2014-10-17T01:23:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Post drunk? NNNNNNnnooooooooooooooooo. You shilly pershun you!1!!! UR shooooo funny. Sheeeeriously though. I love youse, man. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/874 "2014-10-17T01:24:40Z")
People still use the phrase “hollyweird”? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/875 "2014-10-17T01:27:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > People still use the phrase “hollyweird”? Not that you’re aware of. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/876 "2014-10-17T02:41:04Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > … > > If you’re going to continue to create strawmen, lie, and fling insults over substance, at least do it addressed to me. **Hamlet** , you might remember this when addressing **YWTF.** \* “Any formal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always ready to defend their most precious possession - their ignorance.” \* ― Hendrik Willem van Loon ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/877 "2014-10-17T04:51:50Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Exactly what evidence was there that he was not legitimately in the house? There was a 911 call from the neighbour, remember? That’s evidence. It certainly isn’t _proof_, and it may not be very good evidence, but it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/878 "2014-10-17T10:44:59Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you handing out “participation” trophies? If everyone gets one, then I don’t want one. Participation trophies were invented specifically so you can get a trophy. It’s a trophy for bragging, in an internet discussion, of how awesome you’d be in a hypothetical situation. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/879 "2014-10-17T11:57:54Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s actually how I characterized your position. The part that is in conflict is you simultaneously object to deference, and expect police to be experts. If they are experts, wouldn’t a certain about of deference be appropriate? Blind deference, no, but moreso than the layman. As I correctly surmised, you think I object to deference due to some belief that cops are too ignorant to be relied upon. And this is a stupid conclusion to draw. I object to blind deference because I don’t trust cops–even knowledgeable ones–to always care about acting fairly, judiciously, and within legal limits. I expect them to, but I know many don’t. There are undoubtedly good cops out there, but there are also bullies who take immense pleasure in steamrolling people. This brand of thug assumes that no matter what they do, people are obligated to obey, even if obeying means going against their own self-interest. Citizens are responsible for knowing their rights precisely because it serves as a check against police abuse. Not police ignorance, but _abuse_. We have the right to push back when a cop is crossing the line, because cops serve us not the other way other way around. If a cop attempts to search our home without a warrant, then we have the right to demand that he explain himself (like Currie did) and refuse entry if no valid explanation or warrant is forth coming (a right that Currie was denied). If they try to search anyway, we have the right to curse, raise our voice, and be difficult (which is what Currie did). We are _not_ obligated to stay calm, submissive, and respectful when confronted with abusive policing (which is what has been suggested in this thread). In other words, being an expert doesn’t prevent cops from being untrustworthy assholes. I expect people to defer to cops but only to a point. That point being when cops are showing a gross disregard for the law and our civil liberties. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795/880 "2014-10-17T11:59:18Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > “Your ID doesn’t match and there is no evidence that you really live here” is not the same as “the police noticed that evidence existed that he was not legitimately in the house”, right? No. > [@](#): > > Exactly what evidence was there that he was not legitimately in the house? THe neighbor reported him as a stranger, and his claim that he lived there was contradicted by the address on his ID (and the fact that there were no pictures of him in the house into which he claimed he had been adopted. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-cops-pepper-spray-black-foster-son-of-white-family/700795.md?page=45)