# NC Federal House Districts unconstitutionally gerrymandered **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 10, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306 "2018-01-10T12:00:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/61 "2018-01-11T21:57:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, heaven forfend the saintly [Democrats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_3rd_congressional_district) would ever do such a mean, undemocratic thing! My stars and garters! To be fair, the Dems in NC were pretty bad gerrymanderers when they were in control; I think the reason they weren’t as bad as Republicans is because the technology wasn’t quite as good, not because they’re better people. Which is why I think we need to make gerrymandering harder to do. The party in power should, if they want to stay in power, offer good policy and good constituent services. Providing alternate routes to staying in power, such as gerrymandering the fuck out of the area they govern, is necessarily going to lead to worse government, as their incentive for governing well is lessened. This will apply to both Democrats and Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/62 "2018-01-11T23:29:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, there are fewer rural voters than there are urban voters. Guess what? There are fewer black voters than there are white voters–should we have a system that weights black voters more heavily so they’re not disenfranchised? There are fewer atheist voters than Christian voters–should we weight atheist votes higher to keep them from being disenfranchised? There are fewer immigrant citizens than native-born citizens–how much should we weight their votes to keep them from being disenfranchised? > > All of these are groups that, like rural voters, are a minority of citizens who tend to have common interests. But nobody ever makes the argument that they should have political influence larger than their presence in the population. This silly argument is only raised for rural voters. In [Pakistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Pakistan#Electoral_procedure), just as an example, seats in Parliament are reserved for women and non-Muslims. A fairly large number of [countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_political_positions), including some fully westernized democracies, have similar set asides. It’s easier to implement this way with parliamentary systems, but the basic principle of preserving some democratic power for groups with fewer members, or historically disenfranchised, while potentially foreign to the United States, is not uncommon globally. I don’t know about you, but I would not immediately dismiss bringing more of this to the United States. Just as an example, if there were a movement to reserve a handful of seats in Congress to native peoples, I could imagine being in favor. This is a group whose historic lack of power is consistently reflected in US policy towards them, largely to their detriment. Their numbers are so low that it’s hard to imagine this changing under a pure, one-person-one-vote system, but perhaps it should change nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/63 "2018-01-12T00:22:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, heaven forfend the saintly [Democrats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_3rd_congressional_district) would ever do such a mean, undemocratic thing! My stars and garters! I certainly never said that the Democrats were saintly or would never gerrymander a district. I’ve just seen no evidence that they have, in the post-civil rights era, engaged in, or seem likely to engage in the wholesale undermining of democracy that the republicans are pursuing and you’re cheerleading for. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/64 "2018-01-12T00:25:16Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > In [Pakistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Pakistan#Electoral_procedure), just as an example, seats in Parliament are reserved for women and non-Muslims. A fairly large number of [countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_political_positions), including some fully westernized democracies, have similar set asides. It’s easier to implement this way with parliamentary systems, but the basic principle of preserving some democratic power for groups with fewer members, or historically disenfranchised, while potentially foreign to the United States, is not uncommon globally. > > I don’t know about you, but I would not immediately dismiss bringing more of this to the United States. Just as an example, if there were a movement to reserve a handful of seats in Congress to native peoples, I could imagine being in favor. This is a group whose historic lack of power is consistently reflected in US policy towards them, largely to their detriment. Their numbers are so low that it’s hard to imagine this changing under a pure, one-person-one-vote system, but perhaps it should change nonetheless. Without opining on whether such a system is suitable for Pakistan, I don’t think it’d be the right solution for the United States. One of the US’s relative strengths (compared to Pakistan, and yes, I realize the implications of that benchmark) is a relative willingness to vote outside of our identity group. Measures taken in places where folks are much less willing to vote outside of the group are not necessarily suitable here. Native groups are different: they have this quasi-sovereign status in the United States, a status that has historical underpinnings but that doesn’t necessarily serve Native interests particularly well (a fully sovereign status that respects original treaty rights would serve Native interests much better, but I don’t think it makes sense to hijack this thread in to that discussion). ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/65 "2018-01-12T00:43:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One of the US’s relative strengths … is a relative willingness to vote outside of our identity group. Relative strength? The US would be a standout among Western democracies where your political affiliation forms such a major and immutable part of your identity group. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/66 "2018-01-12T00:52:25Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Relative strength? > The US would be a standout among Western democracies where your political affiliation forms such a major and immutable part of your identity group. Sometimes the parenthetical comment, which you deliberately omitted and replaced with ellipses, is key to understanding the quote. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/67 "2018-01-12T00:58:09Z")
Slavery was a system enforced by slave-owners against slaves who, despite being people, didn’t get to vote on the matter. No one who complains about the heavy hand of government could be for such a system, its adherents, or their (philosophical) descendants. Well, not with a straight face, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/68 "2018-01-12T01:09:54Z")
> [@PigArcher](#): > > I certainly never said that the Democrats were saintly or would never gerrymander a district. I’ve just seen no evidence that they have, in the post-civil rights era, engaged in, or seem likely to engage in the wholesale undermining of democracy that the republicans are pursuing and you’re cheerleading for. And who drew the district I linked to again? Daleks? The Cybermen? The Sontarans? It was the Raxacoricofallapatorians, wasn’t it? Those farty bastards! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/69 "2018-01-12T02:18:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And who drew the district I linked to again? Daleks? The Cybermen? The Sontarans? > > It was the Raxacoricofallapatorians, wasn’t it? Those farty bastards! All the more reason to get behind a less partisan approach. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/70 "2018-01-12T03:24:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, heaven forfend the saintly [Democrats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_3rd_congressional_district) would ever do such a mean, undemocratic thing! My stars and garters! There’s an accompanying court case forcing the district to be redrawn, right? Because if the court doesn’t say it’s so, then it’s not so, or so I’ve been told. Unless you don’t like what the court said, then it’s bad anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/71 "2018-01-12T03:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DSYoungEsq** : > > That particular concept was so unappealing to those who founded the country that they specifically created methods of representation that avoided it. If it was implemented in this country today, I can state with some certainty that the “united” in our name would quickly stop being true. We can quibble about exactly how much value people outside of a compact geographical area should have in determining democratic results, but if you essentially disenfranchise them, all they will do is quit the agreement that ties them to the compact area with the power. And yet, those same Founders also wrote a national constitution which prohibited states from assigning representation in the manner you propose. Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/72 "2018-01-12T16:25:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And who drew the district I linked to again? Daleks? The Cybermen? The Sontarans? > > It was the Raxacoricofallapatorians, wasn’t it? Those farty bastards! Right, because one badly drawn district is the same as targeted, systematic disenfranchisement. Clearly you’ve got all the angles covered on this one. Maybe these “debates” would go easier if you provided us with a script? That would save you the trouble of twisting our words around before you declare victory. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/73 "2018-01-12T16:39:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, heaven forfend the saintly [Democrats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_3rd_congressional_district) would ever do such a mean, undemocratic thing! My stars and garters! If you see where wiki got that map, then you would see that it is the second most gerrymandered district, the most gerrymandered, was in NC. > [@\[washington post](#): > > ([https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/15/americas-most-gerrymandered-congressional-districts/?utm\_term=.5a8def349e38](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/05/15/americas-most-gerrymandered-congressional-districts/?utm_term=.5a8def349e38))] > 5. Republicans drew Congressional boundaries in six of the 10 most-gerrymandered states. > In addition to North Carolina, Republicans drew district boundaries in Louisiana, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio and Alabama. Democrats drew districts in West Virginia and Illinois, in addition to Maryland. Boundaries in Kentucky were drawn up by that state’s mixed legislature. > > Again, the payoff for Republicans is in the makeup of the state’s delegations: In those six states, Republicans picked up about 11 more seats than you’d expect from simply looking at the parties’ vote shares. I think this is similar to your monopoly “free parking” rule. Just because someone is against a particular rule, if they do not get to remove that rule, then they should take advantage of it, even while lobbying for its removal. It is not hypocrisy to be against gerrymandering, and yet engage in it to less levels than your opponent does. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/74 "2018-01-12T16:57:19Z")
> [@PigArcher](#): > > Right, because one badly drawn district is the same as targeted, systematic disenfranchisement. Clearly you’ve got all the angles covered on this one. Maybe these “debates” would go easier if you provided us with a script? That would save you the trouble of twisting our words around before you declare victory. I think this is something of an inaccurate take. There’s no evidence at all that Democrats who are drawing district lines have had fairness as a major concern: they’re playing the game according to the rules, and if it fucks people over in terms of getting representation, they’ve historically been fine with that. The fact that they’ve traditionally tried to privilege their voters over Republican voters, whatever other demographics they fall into, has been the goal. I’m not fine with that. And I think we should find ways to decrease gerrymandering, to bring it under control, whether it’s Dems or Republicans who have engaged in it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/75 "2018-01-12T18:53:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think this is something of an inaccurate take. There’s no evidence at all that Democrats who are drawing district lines have had fairness as a major concern: they’re playing the game according to the rules, and if it fucks people over in terms of getting representation, they’ve historically been fine with that. The fact that they’ve traditionally tried to privilege their voters over Republican voters, whatever other demographics they fall into, has been the goal. > > I’m not fine with that. And I think we should find ways to decrease gerrymandering, to bring it under control, whether it’s Dems or Republicans who have engaged in it. Much of the gerrymandering done by democrats is done in such a way to ensure minority representation in congress. If it is randomly selected, then it is much harder to get a minority candidate elected when they are being voted for by majority white areas. This is much less of a problem than it was 50 years ago, and so maybe is not needed anymore, but the reason for it was a due to a certain kind of fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/76 "2018-01-12T19:51:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Much of the gerrymandering done by democrats is done in such a way to ensure minority representation in congress. If it is randomly selected, then it is much harder to get a minority candidate elected when they are being voted for by majority white areas. This is much less of a problem than it was 50 years ago, and so maybe is not needed anymore, but the reason for it was a due to a certain kind of fairness. I mean, maybe? I’m not seeing that’s the reason for the sorts of districts Bricker is talking about, though, but I’m persuadable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/77 "2018-01-12T20:04:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mean, maybe? I’m not seeing that’s the reason for the sorts of districts Bricker is talking about, though, but I’m persuadable. I am sure that democrats also did some gerrymandering with the intent of increasing the representation. I was really just responding to this line “There’s no evidence at all that Democrats who are drawing district lines have had fairness as a major concern”. In fact, in drawing district lines in such a way as to increase minority representation, and that minority would be typically voting for D’s, actually weakens the democratic strength slightly, as more than necessary numbers of democratic voters tend to get concentrated into districts in order to ensure the minority representation. This form of “non-blind” districting had a useful purpose, and may or may not be still necessary to prevent backsliding on the representation of minority demographics. If it is still required to avoid homogeneity in the elected representatives, then it may lead to further gerrymandering for less noble purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/78 "2018-01-12T20:28:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I am sure that democrats also did some gerrymandering with the intent of increasing the representation. > > I was really just responding to this line “There’s no evidence at all that Democrats who are drawing district lines have had fairness as a major concern”. > > In fact, in drawing district lines in such a way as to increase minority representation, and that minority would be typically voting for D’s, actually weakens the democratic strength slightly, as more than necessary numbers of democratic voters tend to get concentrated into districts in order to ensure the minority representation. > > This form of “non-blind” districting had a useful purpose, and may or may not be still necessary to prevent backsliding on the representation of minority demographics. If it is still required to avoid homogeneity in the elected representatives, then it may lead to further gerrymandering for less noble purpose. Is there any evidence, through conversations or claims, that Democrats engaged in gerrymandering were knowingly weakening the “democratic strength”? I find that claim difficult to credit. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/79 "2018-01-12T20:36:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is there any evidence, through conversations or claims, that Democrats engaged in gerrymandering were knowingly weakening the “democratic strength”? I find that claim difficult to credit. [Opinion piece](http://thefederalist.com/2017/06/22/democrats-think-twice-seeking-end-gerrymandering/), but he explains it better than I can. > [@](#): > > But to accomplish this, those in charge often have to siphon minority voters from a number of surrounding areas into one homogeneous district in which they will constitute a majority. Since blacks and Hispanics vote for Democrats by overwhelming margins, that creates massive numbers of “wasted votes.” > > Where once gerrymandering in the South was designed to disenfranchise blacks, now it empowers them while hurting their party. This results in exactly the kind of districts that are geographic monstrosities stretching across natural and political boundaries that opponents of gerrymandering despise. > > The process of ensuring minority representation creates situations like that of South Carolina. To create the seat held by Rep. James Clyburn, the assistant Democratic leader in the House and a senior member of the Congressional Black Caucus, African-Americans are gerrymandered into a district that makes Gerry’s original salamander-shaped scheme look like a geometric design. As applied throughout the South, this has been devastating to Democrats while largely transforming the party into one where, ironically, black politicians have a disproportionate amount of influence. Worth reading more of it, but I didn’t want to C&P any more. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306/80 "2018-01-12T23:07:21Z")
From the opinion piece: "To create the seat held by Rep. James Clyburn, the assistant Democratic leader in the House and a senior member of the Congressional Black Caucus, African-Americans are gerrymandered into a district that makes Gerry’s original salamander-shaped scheme look like a geometric design. As applied throughout the South, this has been devastating to Democrats while largely transforming the party into one where, ironically, black politicians have a disproportionate amount of influence. " There are those that might argue that this plays into Republican hands as well since the lawmakers from such “electoral ghettos” tend to be more liberal than their white counterparts. This allows the Republicans to portray the Democratic party as being further left than it actually is. The name Maxine Waters comes to mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-federal-house-districts-unconstitutionally-gerrymandered/806306.md?page=5)