# NC legislature at it again **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772 "2016-12-15T13:52:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/81 "2016-12-17T06:19:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Gerrymandering is what politicians do. Do you know how long it took Republicans to take control of state legislatures? Till like, 2010 in many southern states! North Carolina has been utterly dominated by the Democratic Party until 2010, so of course Republicans gave Democrats a taste of their own medicine and gerrymandered. I have NO idea whether Democratic legislatures in the South benefited from gerrymandering, but given _your_ track-record, unless you have a cite it seems wise to _assume the opposite_. And BTW, with your “a taste of their own medicine” are we meant to assume that the noble GOP would never have “gone low” if the Hillaryists and Carterists hadn’t gone low first? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/82 "2016-12-17T14:22:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If the people didn’t like it they wouldn’t have elected so many damn Republicans. Maybe they’ll learn their lesson and elect better legislators next time? The districts in the state are so Gerrymandered that Federal Courts have ordered not just that they be redrawn, but that the state redo the legislative election next year. So you’re talking about a seriously undemocratic election process, not just ‘I don’t like who got voted in’. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > But Democrats held onto power in that state through tricks and gimmicks, and engaged in plenty of their own power plays, before the Republicans took over in 2010. Now, the shoe is simply on the other foot. Cite, please. Specifically, I’d like to see a case where the Democrats massively expanded the governor’s power (like increasing partisan appointment positions from 500 to 1500) when they came into office with a Democratic governor, then reduced it again when there was a republican incumbent who hadn’t taken office. Or where the Democrats held a special session to significantly reduce the governor’s power immediately after a Democrat lost the election. Or where they Gerrymandered districts so badly that Federal Courts required not just redrawing, but a whole new election. If the Republicans were just doing business as usual, it would be one thing. But like someone else said, this is more like the Democrat foot has an ordinary sneaker, while thee Republican foot has a giant boot with cleats and spikes and a retractable knife. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/83 "2016-12-17T15:28:53Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Gerrymandering is what politicians do. Do you know how long it took Republicans to take control of state legislatures? Till like, 2010 in many southern states! North Carolina has been utterly dominated by the Democratic Party until 2010, so of course Republicans gave Democrats a taste of their own medicine and gerrymandered. Well shoot, I guess that means all gerrymandering is exactly the same. Even if the courts are saying that this has gone so far in the “too far” direction that they not only have to redraw the districts, but have to _repeat the election_, it’s _exactly_ like all those times that didn’t happen to the democrats. As long as we can hold up our equivalency. It’s just like how the republicans said that Obama wouldn’t be allowed to fill a vacant supreme court spot, but democrats rejected an extremist right-winger at one point in the past, so it’s exactly the same thing and totally fair game. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/84 "2016-12-17T21:20:30Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The districts in the state are so Gerrymandered that Federal Courts have ordered not just that they be redrawn, but that the state redo the legislative election next year. So you’re talking about a seriously undemocratic election process, not just ‘I don’t like who got voted in’. You do know that the Democrats gerrymandered the hell out of NC, right? The current poster-child for gerrymandered districts is the NC 12th House of Representatives district, which stretches from Charlotte to Greensboro and Winston-Salem. It was created by Democrats. Mind you, Republicans managed to make it even worse, for their own reasons, when they got into power. NC districts have been found unconstitutional so often (almost always drawn by Democrats in the past) that it’s a wonder there isn’t a special petition created at the 4th District Court of Appeals for “look at us again, please, and slap us down one more time.” Yeah, the Republicans were more efficient at it in 2011, because they had better computers, but it’s not fundamentally different from what Democrats did. > [@](#): > > Cite, please. Specifically, I’d like to see a case where the Democrats massively expanded the governor’s power (like increasing partisan appointment positions from 500 to 1500) when they came into office with a Democratic governor, then reduced it again when there was a republican incumbent who hadn’t taken office. Or where the Democrats held a special session to significantly reduce the governor’s power immediately after a Democrat lost the election. Or where they Gerrymandered districts so badly that Federal Courts required not just redrawing, but a whole new election. In 1972, the Republicans won the Governor’s mansion for the first time in 70 years. The Democrats in the legislature (where they had unassailable majorities, guess how?) promptly stripped the Governor of a substantial amount of the power of that office, handing it over to the Lt. Governor, who, not shockingly, was a Democrat (Jim Hunt). Of course, when the Republicans managed to elect a Lt. Governor in the late '80s, who would have had those powers while a Democrat was in office as Governor, they promptly stripped them back out of the Lt. Gov. office and gave them back to the Governor. Similar back-and-forth has gone on with regard to the State Board of Education and the State Schools Superintendent. There are other examples over time. Are the all as _condensed_ as this batch? No, which is probably where the outcry comes from. But seriously, while Democrats are squawking in a predictable fashion, most of us in the middle are just thinking, “Same ol’, same ol’.” ETA: I should add that I do find it funny that the one thing Democrats in NC were so worried about happening in a special session (packing the NC Supreme Court with two more justices, so that Republicans would have control there again) is the one thing the Republicans said they had no intention of doing. Which shows intelligence on their part: that really **would** have been seriously frustrating the will of the people, who just replaced a conservative with a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/85 "2016-12-18T02:54:09Z")
Perhaps the Democratic Party is evolving from those wretched doings, as the scoundrels and racists have gravitated to their more natural home? Certainly, the Southern Democrat has not always been a paragon of equality under the law. But that was then, and this is now, and the tramp stamp on the butts of those doing wrong in this instance is marked R. R, me hearties, R! R! ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/86 "2016-12-18T16:07:51Z")
A lot of the state house and senate races were unopposed. They were mostly just a republican running. Hard for Dems to win more seats when you cannot even get someone to run. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/87 "2016-12-18T18:24:16Z")
It should be noted that the changes being made run the gamut of benign to actually bad ideas (in my opinion). Senate Bill 4 (signed into law): 1. Merges the State Board of Elections, the State Ethics Commission and the lobbying regulation functions of the Secretary of State’s office into one board, with membership equally divided between Democrats and Republicans, half of which will be appointed by the Governor (2 D, 2 R), and half of which shall be appointed by the Legislature (1 D and 1 R each from the Speaker of the House and from the President Pro Tempore of the Senate). Democrats actually like this change, since it means that the party in control of the Governor’s office no longer gets to control the State Board of Elections. They just dislike the fact that it’s happening NOW, when they would get to have the majority of that board, in THIS WAY, that is, by special session that got sprung on them. 2. Increases membership on county boards of elections to four from three, and splits them evenly between Republicans and Democrats. In odd years, the chairmanship goes to the party with the most registered voters in the state; in even years, it goes to the party with the second-most registered voters in the state. Currently, that would leave Republicans in charge in even-numbered years, when the state elects its governor, and all important state officials. Democrats probably like this proposal, too, except the bit about losing the control during the years that “count” (of course, if the state is forced to comply with the current federal judge’s order to hold re-elections of its Legislature members next year, the Dems may be quite happy with that!). If I were the Democratic Party, I’d tell lots of their members to de-register as Democrats during the even years, so that they become the second-most party. 3. Restores the judicial elections in the state for appellate judges and supreme court justices to partisan races (partisan affiliation shown on ballot). Republicans assert that the only reason they ‘lost’ the seat on the Supreme Court is because the ‘Democrat’ was listed first. I, personally, think this is the worst thing that the bills do. Partisanship in judicial races is a very bad idea. It extends to the judicial branch exactly the same sort of poor decision making process that we get all unhappy about when we watch legislative and administrative office elections. Of course, as a rule, judicial elections often devolve into partisanship, even when they are officially non-partisan. Still, attaching labels to judges is not helpful; it tends to increase (in my opinion) suspicion on the part of the public that the judges are actually acting impartially on the bench. And the Republicans cannot point to any solid reason why this should be done that is NOT partisan in nature; it certainly doesn’t help create better government. North Carolina, with this measure, joins only seven other states which select their supreme court justices in a partisan fashion. Such limelights as Texas, Louisiana and (famously) Alabama show up on that list. 1. Modifies the order of appeals to reduce the number of situations in which there is an appeal _by right_ to the Supreme Court of North Carolina. I won’t go into the details; suffice it to say that there were times you could go straight from the trial court to the NC Supreme Court by right on constitutional issues; you won’t be able to do that any more; you’ll have to go through the intermediate Court of Appeals first. In addition, the Courts of Appeals will be granted extra opportunities to sit _en banc_ after a decision by a three-judge panel. Cynics will say that this is because the Courts of Appeals are dominated by Republican electees, and the Supreme Court, of course, will be tilted 4D - 3R after this election. However, I would note that this actually makes North Carolina function much more like most states, where direct appeal to the highest court is quite limited; it tends to slow down resolution of constitutional cases, of course, but it speeds up work at the supreme court, which doesn’t get as many direct appeals. AND, of course, it isn’t guaranteed that this will work in the favor of Republicans in the future, should Democrats manage to get majorities on the various Courts of Appeals. 2. Changes the appointment rule for openings on the Industrial Commission so that an appointment made for a vacancy on the commission runs for the entire unexpired term, as well as the upcoming full term (theoretically this could mean a person could serve almost a full 12 years!). Also, the outgoing Governor is allowed to name the Chair and Vice-Chair of the Commission. This bit of legislative slight-of-hand is purely designed to let Pat McCrory name the wife of one of his staffers to a vacant position, and then name the chair of the Commission, rather than letting the spot be filled by the incoming Governor Cooper. It’s a purely political slap in the face, for which there is simply no valid non-political explanation (and I’ve not seen any attempt at one from the Republicans in the news articles I’ve read). Immediately upon signing the legislation into law, Pat McCrory nominated Yolanda Stith, wife of his chief of staff, to the vacant position on the IC, and the Senate promptly confirmed that appointment before adjourning _sine die_. House Bill 17 (not yet signed into law by the governor): 1. Requires Senate approval of the appointment of the Governor of officials to his cabinet. The state’s constitution allows for this. Can’t recall if it used to be done, and got taken away at the request of Gov. Hunt or not. 2. Reduces the number of appointments the Governor can make exempt from Civil Service laws from 1500 to 425. Prior to McCrory, the number was 400. The legislature upped it significantly at the request of McCrory. The original claw-back number was 300, but there was testimony from former officials in the government that that was too restrictive. 425 was the compromise. I’m going to insert an interlocutory comment here: if you are opposed to this, you’re much, much too late to be indignant about what’s happening here. The problem isn’t with the reduction; _ **the problem was with the increase to 1500 in 2012!** _ THAT, my friends, was the political gift of the century; 1500 people that the new Republican governor could put to “work” for the state without having to worry about pesky civil service laws. Where was the outrage then? 😉 1. Re-adjusts authority between the State Board of Education and the state’s Superintendent of Schools. The incoming Superintendent is a Republican; the State BoE is going to be majority Democrat, so we see the reason behind this. However, as a former educator in a state lacking unions for teachers, let me just say that letting a state board have control over education is often detrimental to the students; conversely letting a state superintendent have control is often detrimental to the students. It just depends on who gets elected and/or appointed. South Carolina went through 4 years of a complete idiot in the state superintendent role (Mick Zais); on the other hand, the current State Superintendent, Molly Spearman - R is a very good person to shield the educators in the state from the excesses of a board that is filled with appointed flunkies. 2. The Governor will no longer get to appoint 2 of the 30 members of the Board of Trustees for each of the state universities (the two appointments will get split up between the Speaker and the President Pro-tem). This is a change with little real impact on the system. It should be noted that the Governor has been receiving some cogent opinions opposing the House bill from noted former Republican officials, as well as unaffiliated people from the affected systems. Since this bill doesn’t do anything for him, personally, he might not sign it. We shall see. Taken as a whole, these changes are not some wholesale assault on democracy in North Carolina. the Senate Bill has some good stuff in it. The House bill probably is right in returning the number of civil service exempt appointments from 1500 to 425. The main objection to the situation is one of process, rather than substance, really. And, in this, the Republicans are open to criticism. After all, some of these changes are pretty extensive, and probably deserve more scrutiny and tweaking before being passed (for example, the change to the appointment of IC members in the case of vacancies should be limited to vacancies during, say, the last year of the term). But, process aside, North Carolina isn’t going to be some awful place to live because of them. Except for that bit about partisan judges. That, I object to, vehemently. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/88 "2016-12-19T00:52:58Z")
Well it seems there is a real easy way for Dems to regain control of election boards in even years - tell Dems to change registration to unaffiliated and they can be #2. oops, I see this was mentioned above. In fact there is zero reason in NC to be registered as a member of a party. If you have no party you can vote in either primary. Unaffiliated is gaining more than either party. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/89 "2016-12-19T01:03:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have NO idea whether Democratic legislatures in the South benefited from gerrymandering, but given _your_ track-record, unless you have a cite it seems wise to _assume the opposite_. > > And BTW, with your “a taste of their own medicine” are we meant to assume that the noble GOP would never have “gone low” if the Hillaryists and Carterists hadn’t gone low first? 😃 That’s either an insult or an accusation of lying, septimus. Either way you’ve earned a warning. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/90 "2016-12-23T17:03:10Z")
[North Carolina is no longer classified as a democracy](http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article122593759.html) > [@](#): > > the EIP has measured 213 elections in 153 countries and is widely agreed to be the most accurate method for evaluating how free and fair and democratic elections are across time and place. > > When we evolved the project I could never imagine that as we enter 2017, my state, North Carolina, would perform so badly on this, and other, measures that we are no longer considered to be a fully functioning democracy. > > In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone. If it were a nation state, North Carolina would rank right in the middle of the global league table – a deeply flawed, partly free democracy that is only slightly ahead of the failed democracies that constitute much of the developing world. I’m unfamiliar with the EIP–are others familiar with it? The article’s an interesting read, an attempt to quantify some of what’s going on. Meanwhile, the Republicans furiously broke their promise to repeal HB2 if Charlotte repealed their ordinance. I’m unclear whether Charlotte was trolling, or whether they genuinely believed the legislature had any intention of showing good faith. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/91 "2016-12-23T17:28:40Z")
[North Carolina is no longer a democracy.](http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article122593759.html) > [@](#): > > In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone. If it were a nation state, North Carolina would rank right in the middle of the global league table – a deeply flawed, partly free democracy that is only slightly ahead of the failed democracies that constitute much of the developing world. > > Indeed, North Carolina does so poorly on the measures of legal framework and voter registration, that on those indicators we rank alongside Iran and Venezuela. When it comes to the integrity of the voting district boundaries no country has ever received as low a score as the 7/100 North Carolina received. North Carolina is not only the worst state in the USA for unfair districting but the worst entity in the world ever analyzed by the Electoral Integrity Project. ETA: Coincidental timing but the whole link is applicable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/92 "2016-12-23T17:29:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [North Carolina is no longer a democracy.](http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article122593759.html) I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772/93 "2016-12-30T00:42:40Z")
So, a couple of updates: [Keeping with tradition, Cooper is firing all of McCrory’s appointees that he can](http://www.wral.com/incoming-nc-governor-tells-mccrory-staffers-jobs-end-sunday/16383341/). and [There’s a temporary stay in the transfer of power from the state Board of Ed to the hardcore right superintendent](http://www.wral.com/judge-temporarily-blocks-law-shifting-power-from-nc-education-board/16384139/). The legislature is going for the “have they no shame?” award of 2016 by saying: > [@Phil Berger](#): > > It is incredibly disappointing that an appointed board would divert tax dollars meant for our students and teachers into a lawsuit that re-litigates a court case they’ve already lost once before Would you, uh, would you mind re-examining your defense of HB2, asshole? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-legislature-at-it-again/774772.md?page=4)