# NC Probation office is member of Sons of the Confederacy. Is this a problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116 "2019-05-17T14:34:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/81 "2019-05-20T21:05:14Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Missed the edit window. We have started down the slippery slope in this very thread. > > As much as I might be persuaded to get behind firing or not hiring someone who said something in his private life to the effect that he hates blacks and wished they would all be shipped back to Africa, that is not what we have here. We have a guy that belongs to an organization that some members joined in marching with members of another organization, some of them who made such statements. I haven’t seen that slippery slope. There seems to be some question about whether the organization is in fact a racist organization in itself and some more questions about whether it was just some members of the organization that marched with the white supremacist group or whether the organization officially did. Let’s say the Sons of Confederate Veterans were marching ,banners and all with the KKK. What do you think then ? And you might not be worried about the racist clerk at DMV- but I am. Because you can’t always see when people aren’t following standards. Maybe that clerk doesn’t flat out refuse to give a certain group of people drivers licenses- but maybe he will insist that you must have a US birth certificate as proof of identity even though it’s not legally required. Maybe he won’t accept a tribal birth certificate of a certificate of naturalization. How would you find out unless lots of people complain? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/82 "2019-05-20T21:08:39Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Minority clients almost universally claim that they were treated poorly. Do you have a cite for this sweeping statement, or is it based on your own perception? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/83 "2019-05-21T09:51:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh. So the question is, is a probation officer who supports nonviolent civil disobedience that undermines your chosen career substantially the same as a probation officer who glorifies a group that took up arms to betray the country rather than give people who look like you basic human rights? Is that the meat of the question? > > If I knew this guy was head of a local Extinction Rebellion chapter, and I worked for Shell Oil, I might ask for a different probation officer. > > But there’s a key difference: folks who support Extinction Rebellion have never ever EVER been in a position where they wielded political power sufficient to enact oppressive laws anything like Jim Crow. There’s no reason for me, an oil man, to believe that they’re tapped into a network of anti-oil bigots who will deliberately or unconsciously work together to deny me my rights. Extinction Rebellion is a radical organisation committed to using illegal actions including trespassing and vandalism in order to disrupt the public so they can get attention. They are diametrically opposed to law and order. Shouldn’t someone diametrically opposed to law and order be excluded from holding a position within law enforcement? Especially if there’s a risk they might use their position to cause disruption, or be biased against someone they consider anti-environmental? It’s a facetious argument. I don’t know whether the public actions of the Sons of Confederate Veterans organisation are any better or worse than the public actions of the Daughters of Texas. If it can be convincingly shown that SOCV is a white supremacist organisation, then membership in that organisation is inconsistent with holding a law and order position. However, if SOCV is simply a Confederate heritage group as described in the first sentence of the linked article, then that’s not sufficient cause in my opinion to have someone fired from their job. I don’t want the government telling its employees what organisations they can or can’t join. But if you’re going to damn people based on the groups there in, then I think membership in a group where 1,130 people were arrested and whose actions cost the public millions of pounds is pretty damning. Think about protecting your own freedoms before you take someone else’s away. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/84 "2019-05-21T10:07:58Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I haven’t seen that slippery slope. There seems to be some question about whether the organization is in fact a racist organization in itself and some more questions about whether it was just some members of the organization that marched with the white supremacist group or whether the organization officially did. Let’s say the Sons of Confederate Veterans were marching ,banners and all with the KKK. What do you think then ? > And you might not be worried about the racist clerk at DMV- but I am. Because you can’t always see when people aren’t following standards. Maybe that clerk doesn’t flat out refuse to give a certain group of people drivers licenses- but maybe he will insist that you must have a US birth certificate as proof of identity even though it’s not legally required. Maybe he won’t accept a tribal birth certificate of a certificate of naturalization. How would you find out unless lots of people complain? Again, all of this can be handled by standards in the industry and ferreted out. If a DMV clerk requires a U.S. Birth Certificate, a naturalized citizen can point to the list of required documents and ask for a supervisor. Then the supervisor can (later) bitch out the clerk for not following his training. The reason doesn’t matter. The fact is that the clerk did not follow procedure no matter the reason and the clerk should become more knowledgeable/less racist or lose his job. > [@nelliebly](#): > > Do you have a cite for this sweeping statement, or is it based on your own perception? Own experience. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/85 "2019-05-21T11:28:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, all of this can be handled by standards in the industry and ferreted out. If a DMV clerk requires a U.S. Birth Certificate, a naturalized citizen can point to the list of required documents and ask for a supervisor. Then the supervisor can (later) bitch out the clerk for not following his training. The reason doesn’t matter. The fact is that the clerk did not follow procedure no matter the reason and the clerk should become more knowledgeable/less racist or lose his job. Can you answer my earlier question about how many professions have discretion, and a range of actions within that discretion are allowable? > [@](#): > > Own experience. How often do you think minorities in West Virginia actually do face some level of discrimination or bigotry from law enforcement and/or the courts? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/86 "2019-05-21T11:59:57Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, all of this can be handled by standards in the industry and ferreted out. If a DMV clerk requires a U.S. Birth Certificate, a naturalized citizen can point to the list of required documents and ask for a supervisor. Then the supervisor can (later) bitch out the clerk for not following his training. The reason doesn’t matter. The fact is that the clerk did not follow procedure no matter the reason and the clerk should become more knowledgeable/less racist or lose his job. And if he doesn’t feel comfortable complaining about the person he saw marching in the “white power” parade last Saturday, oh well. If he had a problem he should have told the supervisor. Why is it that you only answer certain questions? I mean, of course you don’t have to, but we’re asking because we’re trying to figure out what you think. At the moment, I’m thinking that you believe the government as an employer has few of the rights of a private employer - as long as I follow their procedures , they can’t fire me. No matter what I say to anyone anywhere- to clients or coworkers at work or with a bullhorn in a parade down main street. It doesn’t matter what I do if it can be construed as speech - and too bad if non-whites don’t trust a police force with officers who thought this was funny : > [@](#): > > This year’s parade included a ``Black to the Future″ float, with white men in blackface marching alongside a pickup truck. At one point, they mock the dragging death of a black man in Texas, a crime that shocked the country earlier this year. Additionally, it seems that as long as I stay within the bounds of my discretion , you don’t have a problem as long as my racism is not obvious- if I arrest 95% of non-whites for not paying the subway fare but only 5% of whites ( the rest get a ticket) , you might have a problem but if I gave 95% of blacks a ticket and only 5% of whites ( the rest walk away with no consequence) it would be fine with you, because there’s no way to count who I let walk away. > [@](#): > > Minority clients almost universally claim that they were treated poorly. And yet that’s not my experience at all. Or else 92% of the clients supervised by my office would be complaining, and they are not. Of course the fact of 92% being non-white makes it difficult to distinguish between who is treating the non-white differently and who is just a hard-ass ( but within normal standards) ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/87 "2019-05-21T15:04:11Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > At the moment, I’m thinking that you believe the government as an employer has few of the rights of a private employer - as long as I follow their procedures , they can’t fire me. No matter what I say to anyone anywhere- to clients or coworkers at work or with a bullhorn in a parade down main street. It doesn’t matter what I do if it can be construed as speech - and too bad if non-whites don’t trust a police force with officers who thought this was funny My understanding is that this discussion is about speech (or other expressive or associational activity) that an employee engages in outside of work and where there is no direct evidence that these views have interfered with their job performance (but we strongly suspect that they must). It’s an interesting question, but I think you’re eliding an important distinction when you equate making statements to coworkers/clients with engaging in out-of-work conduct. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/88 "2019-05-21T16:17:02Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > My understanding is that this discussion is about speech (or other expressive or associational activity) that an employee engages in outside of work and where there is no direct evidence that these views have interfered with their job performance (but we strongly suspect that they must). It’s an interesting question, but I think you’re eliding an important distinction when you equate making statements to coworkers/clients with engaging in out-of-work conduct. I’m not equating them - I’m trying to figure out what position \*\*UltraVires _holds._ ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/89 "2019-05-21T16:29:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Own experience. Then it should be stated as such. Your own experience isn’t sufficient for such a broad conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/90 "2019-05-22T00:42:20Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Again, I don’t see how we start this with “racist” being okay but next year “Republican” or “Trump supporter” or “Socialist” being just a bridge too far. Can we bar a Bernie Sanders supporter from working for the Department of Labor because we fear that he won’t apply the law as written and be unfair to corporations? Because racism is actually wrong. Not considered wrong by one side of the political spectrum. Just objectively wrong. It’s not an issue of having the wrong politics, as are your other examples. That’s what gets lost in these discussions. Racism keeps being treated like it’s just another political opinion, when it isn’t at all. Actual acts of racism are more akin to crimes like theft and assault than they are political protests. And racist speech is more akin to supporting those crimes. Racism is not a political issue in and of itself. Yes, there may be some political opinions that one side thinks is racist, while the other doesn’t. But the fact that racism is wrong is just a provable fact. And thus it should not be treated the same as a political opinion. That doesn’t mean you have to side with this guy being fired, but it does mean you can’t assume a slippery slope from banning racism to banning political opinions in a particular job. I’m actually not clear if this guy is definitely racist. But, if he is, I do think the government should be able to fire him for that. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/91 "2019-05-22T02:11:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I’m not equating them - I’m trying to figure out what position \*\*UltraVires _holds._ I’m not sure what you want me to say that I haven’t already said. I could be open to a prohibition on hiring a person where his or her off the job comments are so directly at odds with the mission of the agency that the person should not be hired. This example is so far removed from that and so very similar to not hiring a Trump supporter to be a dangerous restraint on free speech. > [@BigT](#): > > Because racism is actually wrong. Not considered wrong by one side of the political spectrum. Just objectively wrong. It’s not an issue of having the wrong politics, as are your other examples. > > That’s what gets lost in these discussions. Racism keeps being treated like it’s just another political opinion, when it isn’t at all. Actual acts of racism are more akin to crimes like theft and assault than they are political protests. And racist speech is more akin to supporting those crimes. > > Racism is not a political issue in and of itself. Yes, there may be some political opinions that one side thinks is racist, while the other doesn’t. But the fact that racism is wrong is just a provable fact. And thus it should not be treated the same as a political opinion. > > That doesn’t mean you have to side with this guy being fired, but it does mean you can’t assume a slippery slope from banning racism to banning political opinions in a particular job. > > I’m actually not clear if this guy is definitely racist. But, if he is, I do think the government should be able to fire him for that. A pure opinion is never “a provable fact.” “I hate blacks” cannot be objectively true or false in its outcome. In fact it is certainly true that the person hates blacks. I hate racism, you hate it, and most people hate it. In the United States, a racist person has every right to express his racist views. To say that it is now off limits in the marketplace of ideas sets a very dangerous precedent and is abhorrent to free speech. How is this situation any different from saying that since a person voted for Trump, he must support the wall, and an inference can be made that he hates Hispanics therefore he cannot be hired for a job where he has policy decisions to make regarding Hispanics (and others). Tell me how this deviates at all from the situation in the OP? It’s not a slippery slope, it is the same part of the slope. ---
**Author:** ![BrianDime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BrianDime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianDime)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/92 "2019-05-22T14:03:32Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Who decides whether an idea is “so poisonous” that it does not even qualify as an idea? What if that person thinks that universal health care falls into that category? Thus everything that came after “Thus said” in my post… ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/93 "2019-05-22T15:34:21Z")
Looking at the photo in the OP’s link, I note the officer in question is wearing a leather biker vest with a Confederate Battle Flag patch. Whatever its initial symbolism, the CBF is irredeemably tainted by racist associations, anymore. And irrespective of his intent, the connotations of a leather vest with a Confederate flag are “violent white supremacist”. Given that, the fact that the officer holds a leadership position in the SCV, and given the OP’s question wasn’t “should this man lose his job”, but “is his SCV membership a problem?”, **UltraVires** , I ask again: would you agree that he shouldn’t lose his job over this, but his professional interactions with African-Americans warrant a certain level of scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/94 "2019-05-22T16:34:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I hate racism, you hate it, and most people hate it. In 2015, [when white people were asked why black people have worse incomes, housing, and jobs than white people](https://igpa.uillinois.edu/sites/igpa.uillinois.edu/files/racial_attitudes/Fig6W.gif), the plurality of white people said the lack of motivation and willpower among “most blacks” was the single most important factor in this disparity. I dispute your claim that most people hate racism. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/95 "2019-05-22T16:53:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are these laws still in place? What sort of loyalty oaths do we still require? > > Considering the anti-BDS laws in place, I wonder if we could set up a requirement for public office along the lines of, “I am not, nor will I be, a member of an organization that works to praise or glorify any group that engaged in armed insurrection against the government of the United States.” or wants to engage… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/96 "2019-05-22T23:22:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In 2015, [when white people were asked why black people have worse incomes, housing, and jobs than white people](https://igpa.uillinois.edu/sites/igpa.uillinois.edu/files/racial_attitudes/Fig6W.gif), the plurality of white people said the lack of motivation and willpower among “most blacks” was the single most important factor in this disparity. > > I dispute your claim that most people hate racism. It’s possible to hate racism and not realize some of your own beliefs are racism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116/97 "2019-05-22T23:48:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s possible to hate racism and not realize some of your own beliefs are racism. If baba ganoush is my favorite snack, don’t believe me when I claim to hate eggplant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nc-probation-office-is-member-of-sons-of-the-confederacy-is-this-a-problem/834116.md?page=4)