# NCAA Basketball - Strange Out-of-Bounds Call **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** basketball-nba\ **Created:** [March 22, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184 "2024-03-22T05:13:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/1 "2024-03-22T05:13:17Z")
Anyone know a lot about college basketball here? I feel like I know it fairly well for a fan but I can’t figure out [this call](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4MHlkkavY&lc=Ugx_29ej1-Vx7Q_LfZp4AaABAg). It’s from an NCAA basketball game between U of Minnesota (maroon) and Butler U (white) a couple days ago in the National Invitation Tournament (NIT). A Minnesota player airballs a jumpshot which goes out of bounds. UM players claim in was touched by a BU player trying to block the shot so it should remain UM ball. Replays clearly show that yes, the Butler dude did defect the shot just a tad. So it’s Minnesota ball, right? I say, “No, of course not!” because the last person to touch the ball was not the UM shooter or the BU defender but a different UM player who jumped out of bounds to try to save it but failed because A) he was standing out of bounds when he touched it and B) he didn’t get the ball back in bounds anyway. I am trying to figure out what happened here. Why did the refs give the ball to Minnesota? And why did the announcers not even mention once the player out of bounds trying to save it? Is there some out of bounds rule that I have somehow never heard of my whole life? ---
**Author:** ![I.Dunno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@I.Dunno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I.Dunno)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/2 "2024-03-22T05:38:04Z")
I agree with you. I’m a long time season ticket holder of both mens’ and womens’ D1 teams. And I watch a lot of ball on TV. That said, I am not, nor have I ever been, a ref. The only thing I can think of is, everyone got so caught up in whether or not the ball was partially blocked that they forgot about the out of bounds player that clearly touched it in flight, and even bounced it on the out of bounds part of the floor. I think they just screwed up. To your last question, there is no special “out of bounds rule” that comes into play here. They just screwed up the call. It is odd though that the TV guys AND the Butler coach apparently didn’t think of it either. Plus, out of bounds isn’t reviewable until the last two minutes (maybe last minute, not sure) of the game, and they were at 2:13 I think. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/3 "2024-03-22T06:10:33Z")
> [@I.Dunno](#): > > The only thing I can think of is, everyone got so caught up in whether or not the ball was partially blocked that they forgot about the out of bounds player that clearly touched it in flight, and even bounced it on the out of bounds part of the floor. I think they just screwed up. Yeah. I guess that could have happened. But the Butler players and the coaches were vociferously complaining and I’m sure made it very clear what they saw happen. And, even if what you mention is the reason, it doesn’t explain why the announcers, including an ex-Big 10 coach (Tom Crean), didn’t say one word about the out of bounds (OOB) player trying for and touching the ball while OOB and they replayed the sequence about five times. Everyone makes mistakes. Referees make mistakes. Plenty of mistakes are understandable, if still wrong. For example, using poor judgement on a foul call, being screened from seeing someone foul or double-dribble or something. But some mistakes are so obvious and fundamental that it’s hard to see how it could ever happen at this level of officiating. Maybe a bigger and better question is: people love to rehash and blab about every single play of every game in every sport everywhere. Why isn’t anyone talking about this? I really feel this is so plainly a huge mistake that I have to wonder if I am somehow missing something. Because anyone at all that has watched a basketball game can see that something very odd happened there. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/4 "2024-03-22T07:42:42Z")
I wonder this is a case where the more basketball games you’ve seen, the more likely you are to miss this. The Minnesota player shoots the ball, it misses the backboard and rim, and hits the ground. When that sort of thing happens, how often does the ball land in bounds? Maybe the refs and commentators have seen this sort of play hundreds of times, and the ball always landed out. As soon as this shot missed, they just assumed it was out, too. They automatically started analyzing what happened before the air ball, instead of what happened afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/5 "2024-03-22T11:57:29Z")
The no-call on the out-of-bounds player makes sense to me. Normally in a situation like that, you are trying to do one of two things: - keep the ball in-bounds - bounce the ball off an opposing player so that _they_ are the last one to touch it He did neither. The ball didn’t touch anyone and it didn’t land in-bounds. He was already out of bounds, so he doesn’t count as the last person to touch it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/6 "2024-03-22T12:30:51Z")
I don’t have the NCAA rules, but in the NBA: > [@](#): > > If the ball is out-of-bounds because of touching a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player caused it to go out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/7 "2024-03-22T13:08:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If the ball is out-of-bounds **because** of touching a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player caused it to go out. Emphasis mine. If I understand it correctly, the OOB player tried to save a ball that was headed OOB, and failed to do so. They did not cause the ball to go OOB; it was already going OOB. Was _the ball_ already OOB when touched by the OOB player? That’s how it seemed to me in the video. An OOB player tossing a ball _after_ that ball went OOB doesn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/8 "2024-03-22T13:35:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Was _the ball_ already OOB when touched by the OOB player? Not to my eye. It was still inbounds because it hadn’t touched anything that was out of bounds yet. It bounced inbounds and the next thing it touched was the player trying to save it. If that player was inbounds, and threw the ball inbounds, play should have continued. I think the refs didn’t catch that when the ball bounced it was still inbounds, it was close, but inbounds. ---
**Author:** ![I.Dunno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9f8e36/32.png) [@I.Dunno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I.Dunno)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/9 "2024-03-22T19:30:10Z")
The ball clearly landed in bounds and then bounced over the line and was touched by the Minnesota player. It landed INBOUNDS first. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/10 "2024-03-22T19:53:19Z")
I haven’t watched the video, but based on the description I think this is the right call. Let’s consider these hypotheticals: The UM player shoots the ball, the BU player deflects it. And then… 1. The UM player is standing OB and simply catches the shot ball and hands it to the ref, making no attempt to save it. 2. The UM player is laying on the ground injured OB and the shot ball lands on him on it’s way out of bounds. 3. There’s a UM player on the bench, who is not in the game, he catches the shot ball and tosses it to the ref. 4. Any of the above 3 scenarios where a BU player is the one touching it OB. Would any of those cause you to say that the possession should not go back to UM? I don’t think so. Once the ball goes OB (i.e. touches either the floor or a person standing OB) it’s a dead ball. Whether he’s attempting to save the ball or not is irrelevant unless he reaches into play and causes the ball to go OB. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/11 "2024-03-22T19:59:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not to my eye. It was still inbounds because it hadn’t touched anything that was out of bounds yet. It bounced inbounds and the next thing it touched was the player trying to save it. A player standing OB is the same thing as a ball touching the ground or other stationary object OB. The play stops the moment it touches him. And unless he’s causing it to go OB, him touching it is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/12 "2024-03-22T20:06:57Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > And unless he’s causing it to go OB, him touching it is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > The ball is caused to go out-of-bounds by the last player to touch it (including by touching the player’s hair or uniform) before it goes out, provided it is out-of-bounds because of touching something other than a player. If the ball is out-of-bounds because of touching a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player caused it to go out. [NBA rules](https://official.nba.com/rule-no-8-out-of-bounds-and-throw-in/) By rule, unless the NCAA has different rules than the NBA, if one of the 10 players in the game is standing out of bounds and touches the ball, that player “caused it to go OB”. Not the person who threw it to them, or knocked it towards them, or lost control of the ball. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/13 "2024-03-22T20:20:28Z")
They didn’t mention the shot clock, which, if it had gone off, would have obviated what the “ball savior” was trying to do in any event, but I heard no horn go off or the announcers noting this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/14 "2024-03-22T20:29:10Z")
> [@I.Dunno](#): > > The ball clearly landed in bounds and then bounced over the line and was touched by the Minnesota player. It landed INBOUNDS first. The ball lands inbounds from the (possibly tipped) airball shot, and is bouncing out of bounds. A player who is _out of bounds_ (or moving in that direction) tries to keep it inbounds, but fails - the ball hits the floor out of bounds. If he would have been able to knock the ball back inbounds, then it’s still a live ball. But he’s out of bounds and the ball lands out of bounds, so he is irrelevant to the call. “Who touched it last” is either the shooter or defender, not the guy under the basket trying to keep it in play. Suppose it’s not a play under the basket. Suppose Minnesota player A is passing the ball to Minnesota player B on the sideline, and a Butler player tips the pass. The ball is heading out of bounds and Minnesota player B dives over the scorer’s table to try to keep the ball in play. He touches the ball but isn’t able to keep it inbounds. Are you saying it’s Butler’s ball because he touched it out of bounds? No, the last person who touched it is either Minnesota player A who threw the pass, or the Butler defender who tipped it. It’s the same situation here, just rotated 90°. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/15 "2024-03-22T20:51:23Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > He touches the ball but isn’t able to keep it inbounds. Are you saying it’s Butler’s ball because he touched it out of bounds? No, the last person who touched it is either Minnesota player A who threw the pass, or the Butler defender who tipped it. > > It’s the same situation here, just rotated 90°. > [@NCAA 2023-24 Mens Basketball Rulebook](#): > > Section 1. Out of Bounds—Player, Ball > Art. 1. A player shall be out of bounds when he touches the floor or any object > other than a person on or outside a boundary line. An airborne player’s status > shall be where the airborne player was last in contact with the floor. > Art. 2. The ball shall be out of bounds when it touches a player who is out of > bounds, any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary, the > supports or back of the backboard, or the ceiling or overhead equipment. > Art. 3. The ball shall be out of bounds when any part of the ball passes over the > backboard from any direction. > Section 2. Ball Caused to Go Out of Bounds > Art. 1. The last player to touch the ball before the ball goes out of bounds > caused the ball to go out of bounds, provided that the ball is out of bounds > because it touched something other than a player who is out of bounds. > Art. 2. When the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched > by a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player has caused the ball to > go out of bounds According to the hypothetical, player B is not out of bounds, being airborne after jumping from inbounds and not touching anything before the ball. Neither Player A or defender have caused the ball to go out of bounds YET. After attempting to throw the ball back inbounds and failing, the ball has now landed out of bounds. The last person to touch the ball is Player B, and it should be Butler’s ball. This is 1.1 and 2.1 in combination. If, instead, Player B was standing out of bounds (or jumped from out of bounds, which is the same thing according to the rules), 2.2 states he is the player who caused the ball to go out of bounds. Again, Butler’s ball. This is also exactly what happened in the OP. 21 stepped on the line while jumping out of bounds to save the ball. It was out of bounds the moment he touched it. The refs screwed the pooch on this one, on a [similar level to Kevin Durant literally sliding along the baseline while throwing the ball back in.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAGZPmQGLb8) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/16 "2024-03-22T20:59:46Z")
Yup, that is unambiguous. They blew the call and what I said earlier is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/17 "2024-03-22T21:16:49Z")
Yep, makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ncaa-basketball-strange-out-of-bounds-call/999184/18 "2024-03-23T00:26:47Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > If, instead, Player B was standing out of bounds (or jumped from out of bounds, which is the same thing according to the rules), 2.2 states he is the player who caused the ball to go out of bounds. Again, Butler’s ball. This is also exactly what happened in the OP. 21 stepped on the line while jumping out of bounds to save the ball. It was out of bounds the moment he touched it. And, even if #21 had _not_ stepped on the line when he tried to save it the ball never went back in-bounds so it’d still be Butler ball.