# NDE, I had one, has anyone else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411 "2009-02-11T19:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/41 "2009-02-12T15:35:28Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I think you’re referring to Ocaam’s Razor - simplest explanation is _usually_ the best. I am. Unfortunately you keep retreating to a position without evidence, and making this point as if it’s a great revelation. It’s not. > [@](#): > > _ **Mirror Image quote:** _ > Very convenient, given the fact that nobody’s proved they don’t exist, either, but you can’t prove they do exist" is good enough for people who are already convinced. Totally irrelevant: if you want to prove something exists, usually you have to _show it actually exists_, not just say it _could_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/42 "2009-02-12T15:44:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But it still beats dream interpretation when it comes to gathering accurate information and drawing accurate conclusions. I would agree with you if gathered _all_ accurate information. Without all info, _in toto_, you cannot necessarily draw accruate conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/43 "2009-02-12T15:47:29Z")
> [@Sacrilegium](#): > > Not an NDE, but I’ve had an out-of-body experience. I’ve never done hallucinogenic drugs (unless you count gas at the dentist’s office), so I can’t compare my experience to those. > > Still, I don’t believe it was an objectively “real” experience. _Just a trick of my primitive monkey brain. A very cool and fun trick though it may be._ I agree it could be nothing more than that, but unlike you, I do believe it was an objectively real experience. Again, the operative word is believe. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/44 "2009-02-12T15:48:27Z")
Has anyone actually seen a photo of an atom? Can we put one under a miscroscope and see it with the naked eye? ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/45 "2009-02-12T15:52:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no such thing as “life force.” > > Dying in “the classical sense” means dying permanently. You “died” in a figurative sense. You know exactly what I mean when I say “life force”. Whatever “it” is that animates us, gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc. Whatever name you want to give “it” is irrelevant. When you get shot dead and all that’s there is an inanimate chunk of meat, bone and fluids, something is missing…animation, essence, life force, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/46 "2009-02-12T15:57:17Z")
Would you like to at least offer a theory on what you think _did_ happen, **jakesteele**? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/47 "2009-02-12T16:00:01Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You know exactly what I mean when I say “life force”. Whatever “it” is that animates us, gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc. Whatever name you want to give “it” is irrelevant. When you get shot dead and all that’s there is an inanimate chunk of meat, bone and fluids, something is missing…animation, essence, life force, etc. What’s missing, to best of humanity’s knowledge, is functional chemistry. What gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc, is our brains. If you have evidence of anything more than this, please present it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/48 "2009-02-12T16:02:39Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You know exactly what I mean when I say “life force”. Whatever “it” is that animates us, gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc. Whatever name you want to give “it” is irrelevant. When you get shot dead and all that’s there is an inanimate chunk of meat, bone and fluids, something is missing…animation, essence, life force, etc. Can this force be measured? Detected? Does it affect anything in the material world? Is it affected by gravity? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/49 "2009-02-12T16:08:08Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You know exactly what I mean when I say “life force”. Whatever “it” is that animates us, gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc. Whatever name you want to give “it” is irrelevant. When you get shot dead and all that’s there is an inanimate chunk of meat, bone and fluids, something is missing…animation, essence, life force, etc. No such thing exists. There is no animating “force.” Life is just a chemical process. When the process ends, the life ends. A living organism is not matter occupied by a “life force.” It’s an interaction of chemicals. Nothing is “missing” from a dead organism. The chemical process has just ended. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/50 "2009-02-12T16:08:54Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > You know exactly what I mean when I say “life force”. Whatever “it” is that animates us, gives us personality, cognition, awareness, consciousness, etc. Midichlorians? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/51 "2009-02-12T16:13:54Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > While the Scientific Method is touted to be the greatest thing since Mother’s milk, it is, at its current state, woefully inadequate when attempting to explain every aspect of life/death, the universe and everything. It makes progress every day but has many light years to go. That’s arguable, but even granting it’s true for the sake of argument, that doesn’t justify the substitution of an even more inadequate method of explanation, aka “making shit up because it sounds good,” which is what you’re doing. Even with its limitations, it’s still better than every other alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/52 "2009-02-12T16:19:28Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I think you’re referring to Ocaam’s Razor - simplest explanation is _usually_ the best. Occam’s Razor says that you don’t multiply entities beyond their neccessity. Thisoften gets paraphrased as “the simplest explanation is best,” but that’s not really what it means. What it means is that you don’t hypothesize without need. If you have an explanation that works, there’s no reason to consider anything more complicated unless there’s a need for it. If you see paw prints leading from your kitchen table to the dog house n your backyard, and you see your dog eating your missing steak, you can assume that the dog took youyr steak. You don’t need toassume that somebody snuck into your house, planted fake pawprints and gave the dog your steak. Occam is especially applicable when youi’re talking about hypotheses which are _pr5ima facie_ impossible. It is impossible to “leave” your own body. Consciousness is produced by the brain and can no more exist outside of it than the light from a lightbulb can be segregated from the bulb. Therefore tany literal interpretation of an OBE sensation can be safely dismissed out of hand. The impossible should always be presumed to be impossible until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/53 "2009-02-12T16:27:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I am. Unfortunately you keep retreating to a position without evidence, and making this point as if it’s a great revelation. It’s not. I’m not retreating to a position without evidence, I am holding the door open to all possibilities. If you only accept things in terms of what you already understand, then your science is no longer an open system. The Scientific Method is only as all knowing and far seeing as its current limitations and boundaries will allow it to be. It is an instrument, like OR, that is continually sharpening its blade, but for many things it is still like doing brain surgery with a butter knife To say, “the absence of proof is not proof of absence” is totally valid. This has gone on since time immemorial. Copernicus made observations with his naked eye about the heliocentric nature of the universe which, of course, were proven later by Galileo. Obviously, Galileo was not the type to say, “Let’s see some proof, Mr. Copernicus.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/54 "2009-02-12T16:31:05Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I’m not retreating to a position without evidence, I am holding the door open to all possibilities. There’s not much point in holding a door open to all possibilities without cause. > [@](#): > > It is an instrument, like OR, that is continually sharpening its blade, but for many things it is still like doing brain surgery with a butter knife Why is that true in this case? > [@](#): > > Copernicus made observations with his naked eye about the heliocentric nature of the universe which, of course, were proven later by Galileo. Obviously, Galileo was not the type to say, “Let’s see some proof, Mr. Copernicus.” Galileo provided proof. Meanwhile I’ve asked you to at least offer a theory, but so far, you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/55 "2009-02-12T16:33:56Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Has anyone actually seen a photo of an atom? Can we put one under a miscroscope and see it with the naked eye? You don’t have to be able to see something with the naked eye to be able to empirically prove it exists. We can prove atoms exist through careful inference (and indirect observation). There isn’t the slightest bit of even indirect evidence for the soul. nor is there any explanatory necessity for them. Also, they’re impossible. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/56 "2009-02-12T16:34:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Would you like to at least offer a theory on what you think _did_ happen, **jakesteele**? Sure, my theory, my belief, my conclusion is that I had an honest to god, for real NDE. I died, had an ineffable experience and came back. Doctors told me that I was dead for a short period of time based on their scientific definition of dead. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/57 "2009-02-12T16:39:13Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Sure, my theory, my belief, my conclusion is that I had an honest to god, for real NDE. I know that and I believe you had the experience you described. I want an explanation of how the NDE happened. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/58 "2009-02-12T16:39:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No such thing exists. There is no animating “force.” Life is just a chemical process. When the process ends, the life ends. A living organism is not matter occupied by a “life force.” It’s an interaction of chemicals. Nothing is “missing” from a dead organism. The chemical process has just ended. That is nothing more than what you believe. You don’t know any more about what happens when someone dies than any other swinging dick out there. I find that statement arrogant and assumptive and I must ask you: Were you born omniscient or did you go to school to learn it? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/59 "2009-02-12T16:45:08Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > She stopped breathing pretty much immediately. She accurately remembers the entire ambulance ride from a 3rd person perspective, as if she was above it… I’ve heard that some emergency room doctors have put pieces of paper on top of high cabinets with a letter, number, or symbol drawn on them to ask someone who claimed to have an above-the-body NDE what was on the paper. I wonder if that’s an urban legend, or if not, how common it is. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/60 "2009-02-12T16:46:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Would you like to at least offer a theory on what you think _did_ happen, **jakesteele**? Sure. I’ve already replied but it didn’t seem to work. What I believe, think, know is that I died, had a NDE and came back. According to the doctors, by their standards and interpretations, I was officially dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=4)