# NDE, I had one, has anyone else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411 "2009-02-11T19:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/61 "2009-02-12T16:47:30Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > I’m not retreating to a position without evidence, I am holding the door open to all possibilities. Magic fairy spirits inhabiting human bodies are not a “possibility.” > [@](#): > > If you only accept things in terms of what you already understand, then your science is no longer an open system. The Scientific Method is only as all knowing and far seeing as its current limitations and boundaries will allow it to be. It is an instrument, like OR, that is continually sharpening its blade, but for many things it is still like doing brain surgery with a butter knife. Scientific method is a method for acquiring information. It works by empirical observation and inference and it works by testing hypotheses. magical fairy souls provide neither explanatory power nor any metho for scientific testing, therefore scientific method has no application to them except to observe that there is no evidence for them, and they are not needed to explain any known phenomena. They are not even a coherently defined hypothesis. What IS a “soul” anyway? What is it made of? > [@](#): > > To say, “the absence of proof is not proof of absence” is totally valid. It’s also completely empty of any significance. > [@](#): > > This has gone on since time immemorial. Copernicus made observations with his naked eye about the heliocentric nature of the universe which, of course, were proven later by Galileo. Obviously, Galileo was not the type to say, “Let’s see some proof, Mr. Copernicus.” Copernicus and Galileo made _observations_. They had _evidence_. And Galileo WAS the type to say “let’s see some proof.” Copernicus hda _evidence_. He wasn’t just speculating out of his ass, and Galileo didn’t just accpet anything on faith. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/62 "2009-02-12T16:48:36Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > What I believe, think, know -These are all words with distinct meanings- > [@](#): > > I died, had a NDE and came back. The question is how you had the NDE. You believe you had some form of experience that defies the biochemical explanations, involving drugs, lack of oxygen, whatever, and I’m asking what actually transpired if it wasn’t those things. An NDE is just the name for this experience and doesn’t explain how it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/63 "2009-02-12T16:54:05Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > That is nothing more than what you believe. You don’t know any more about what happens when someone dies than any other swinging dick out there. > > I find that statement arrogant and assumptive and I must ask you: Were you born omniscient or did you go to school to learn it? Take a high school biology class, dude. There’s nothing that mysterious about it. We essentially know what “life” is. It’s not a mystery. There’s nothing arrogant about pointing that out. It’s not my “belief,” it’s demonstrable fact. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/64 "2009-02-12T17:03:34Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > That’s arguable, but even granting it’s true for the sake of argument, that doesn’t justify the substitution of an even more inadequate method of explanation, aka “making shit up because it sounds good,” which is what you’re doing. Even with its limitations, it’s still better than every other alternative. Tell me what part of my statement about the SM is made up shit. It is only as good as or useful as its capable of right now or at any time; past, present or future. Copernicus, with his naked eye, came up with the heliocentric model of the universe, but he couldn’t prove it. Guys like you and other skeptics back then said to him, “Prove it, bring it into my lab and measure and quantify it with our insturments. If not, we’ll dismiss it” Unfortunately, they didn’t have a good telescope. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/65 "2009-02-12T17:17:31Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Copernicus, with his naked eye, came up with the heliocentric model of the universe, but he couldn’t prove it. What makes you think naked eye observation cannot constitute scientific evidence? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/66 "2009-02-12T17:27:06Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Tell me what part of my statement about the SM is made up shit. It is only as good as or useful as its capable of right now or at any time; past, present or future. Copernicus, with his naked eye, came up with the heliocentric model of the universe, but he couldn’t prove it. Guys like you and other skeptics back then said to him, “Prove it, bring it into my lab and measure and quantify it with our insturments. If not, we’ll dismiss it” Unfortunately, they didn’t have a good telescope. Two nits and a point: 1. The universe isn’t heliocentric; the solar system is. 2. Given that Copernicus’ theory was published the day he died, I doubt any skeptics asked too many questions to him directly. 3. Why the hell shouldn’t people have asked for evidence of heliocentrism? You seem to think everyone should have just taken Copernicus’ word for it. ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/67 "2009-02-12T17:35:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s not much point in holding a door open to all possibilities without cause. > > _That’s where we sharply disagree. If you let the door close all you see is what’s already in the room. I believe in being to all possibilities. But that’s just differing_ > Why is that true in this case? > > _It means it’s only as good as it is, it’s not greater than itself. Before Geiger counters they couldn’t accurately measure levels of radioactivity; and the list goes on and on. It can’t quantify what it can’t measure. But when new advances are made, new tools are developed that can measure further and better._ > Galileo provided proof. Meanwhile I’ve asked you to at least offer a theory, but so far, you haven’t. \*But Copernicus didn’t. He theorized it and it went against the grain, challenged the existing paridigm, met with resistance negative skepticism. My theory is that I had a real one. There’s no way I can quantify that for you. You can quantify the psysical/chemical part of the equation but right now there’s no definitive way to determine if that is the complete equation. - ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/68 "2009-02-12T17:43:43Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > But Copernicus didn’t. He theorized it and it went against the grain, challenged the existing paridigm, met with resistance negative skepticism. We do forget sometimes on this board that science tends to be influenced by the prejudices of the day. That said, it doesn’t make your explanation more true or the other theories less true. > [@](#): > > My theory is that I had a real one. A real what, though? And how? All you can tell me is the name for what you experienced (NDE). You’ve offered no means through which it happened, which is what I was looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/69 "2009-02-12T18:22:16Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > \*But Copernicus didn’t. He theorized it and it went against the grain, challenged the existing paridigm, met with resistance negative skepticism. He didn’t just hypothesize it out of his ass. He realized that a heliocentric solar system explained the observable data better than a geocentric one. He didn’t just SAY it, he showed the evidence for it. > [@](#): > > My theory is that I had a real one. That’s not your “theory,” that’s your beliefe. Just because you believe something doesn’t make it a theory. A theory has to meet certain criteria to be properly called a theiry. It has to have explanatory value. It has to be supported by evidence and it has to be falsifiable. Your belief fails to have any of those things. It’ no different than saying you believe baldness is caused by invisible, hair stealing goblins. Just because you can make something up, doesn’t make it a theory. > [@](#): > > There’s no way I can quantify that for you. You can quantify the psysical/chemical part of the equation but right now there’s no definitive way to determine if that is the complete equation. the problem for you is that the chemical explanations are already _sufficient_. There is no part of the experience that people haven’t eperienced through chemicals or electrical stimulation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/70 "2009-02-12T18:41:55Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Sure. I’ve already replied but it didn’t seem to work. What I believe, think, know is that I died, had a NDE and came back. According to the doctors, by their standards and interpretations, I was officially dead. Hang on, I think you’ve missed a bit here. You had an experience, the doctors say that you were dead by their standards and interpretations, yet you have rather a certain timeline for these events; alive, dead, NDE, dead, alive, to put it very bluntly. How do you know that the period in which you had your experience was whilst you were dead? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/71 "2009-02-12T19:37:31Z")
Doesn’t the law of conservation of energy leave open the possibility of a ‘soul’, if our brain is some form of power pack? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/72 "2009-02-12T19:42:56Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Doesn’t the law of conservation of energy leave open the possibility of a ‘soul’, if our brain is some form of power pack? \*Is \*the brain some sort of power pack? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/73 "2009-02-12T19:49:00Z")
It wouldn’t matter if it was. When the brain stops working, there’s no more power pack. Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain like light is an emergent property of a light bulb. Consciousness can’t continue to exist without the brain anymore than the light can continue to exist after the light bulb is broken. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/74 "2009-02-12T19:51:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Doesn’t the law of conservation of energy leave open the possibility of a ‘soul’, if our brain is some form of power pack? No. The body stops generating power, so the brain uses up its last power and then shuts down. There’s no mystical energy sitting up there, it’s all explained by the physical properties of the chemical reactions that create energy. What happens to any powered device when you remove the power source? ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/75 "2009-02-12T20:14:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Has anyone actually seen a photo of an atom? Can we put one under a miscroscope and see it with the naked eye? Well, you’re never going to get a strictly defined image of an atom in which light reflects off the atom and hits your eyeball, because the wavelength of visible light is far larger than the size of an atom. But if you’re not concerned with that, then yeah, [take your pick](http://images.google.com/images?q=scanning+tunneling+microscope+atom+image). [Modern microscopes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope) are really quite amazing. The tips of the probes on those suckers consist of a single atom. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/76 "2009-02-12T20:33:15Z")
Anyone who claims this claptrap should examine where they are when it happened. “There are no words to describe it.” No kidding. Dreams are very hard to explain, NDEs are not. Once i was knocked out. I was revived, but I was in a coma. I thought I had an NDE, but everything I could remember could be explained by the med reports. All “meaning of life” thoughts and conversations with dead people were conversations throughout my hospital room. For most who claim this happened to them: The lights were hospital OR lights or a pen light from an EMT The overlapping voices, radio transmissions in the ambulance. A foreign language? Medical speak. They were talking about your stats. Comparable to every UFO abductee: The flashing lights were cop lights The tubes and experiments? They were pumping your shit factory. The funny shaped people? Humans in scrubs. Of course there’s always that possibility of appearing on TV! For most Joe Schmos, Johnny Punchclocks, a TV interview IS salvation. All NDEs are absolutely, positively bupkus. The logic flaw? How can anyone coherently find an answer to afterlife when their vision is blurred, BP weak, and a slow or stopped heart? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/77 "2009-02-12T20:35:13Z")
Keiffer Sutherland did it! ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/78 "2009-02-12T20:44:00Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Keiffer Sutherland did it! I always think “Flatliners” when someone brings this up. (What a dismal OR!) If you notice, the scriptwriters tried to talk about NDE but after about an hour, it makes no sense. Reality. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/79 "2009-02-12T20:46:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Midichlorians? Funny, pithy and a wee bit nerdy. I give it a thumbs up! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411/80 "2009-02-12T20:56:00Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > Sure, my theory, my belief, my conclusion is that I had an honest to god, for real NDE. I died, had an ineffable experience and came back. Doctors told me that I was dead for a short period of time based on their scientific definition of dead. No, you did not “die” despite what any doctor told you. The fact that you are posting right now means that you did not die. Death is a final thing. When you are dead, you are no longer living, and will not come back. This is the very definition of death. You were unconscious perhaps. Your heart may have even stopped for a brief time. However, you were not dead, no matter what anyone tells you thier “scientific definition” of dead is . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nde-i-had-one-has-anyone-else/485411.md?page=5)